posted
But I've heard loads of theories about different dates for the Eugenics wars, ie it was set then, or it was set on such and such a date - like the mid twenty first century. All these theories though HAVE to be looked upon as complete Bull!! Because (and NOBODY can explian this to me) how the bloody hell can you EXPLAIN AWAY Khan's exact line of:
"[Kirk} never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year nineteen- ninety-six, myself and the ship's company in cryogenic freeze?"
The clear indication of the year 1996 cannot possibly be ignored here. Do these people that try to make up their own canon say Khan suffered some kind of amnesia, or a form of bizarre mental affliction that makes him involuntarily subtract 50 years from every date he mentions??
Sorry, but bullshit.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
Perhaps because that date simply can't be right? (Not that that's where I'm coming from, but for the purposes of this discussion.)
Sometimes information changes. Kirk gets stuck with Tiberius instead of Roderick. Starfleet takes control from the Grand United Earth Fleet of Might and Glory. And, in the "reality" of the show, Kirk was always T., and Starfleet was around long before he commanded the Enterprise.
posted
UESPA is mentionned on the E-B dedication plaque, though as a sub-division of Starfleet and the Federation. It's listed as the last row or people involved with the E-B's construction. Denise Okuda, Alan Kobayashi, and among others are listed under UESPA.
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posted
Irregardless of canonicity as written by the Okudas and generally accepted, I still find targetemployee's timeline very interesting and well worth rewatching the TOS episodes where he gets his information.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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posted
"UESPA is mentionned on the E-B dedication plaque, though as a sub-division of Starfleet and the Federation. It's listed as the last row or people involved with the E-B's construction. Denise Okuda, Alan Kobayashi, and among others are listed under UESPA."
Er, if we're taking the dedication plaques as cannon now, then Okuda, Sternbach, and a few others, are over 100 years old, since they seemed to have worked on the Ent-B AND D.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
posted
That's a damn good point PsyLiam. There could be a potential thread in the state of plaque canonicity !!
A certain top brass Starfleet officer called 'Gene Roddenberry' worked on various starship projects such as the USS Defiant, USS Enterprise-B, USS Enterprise-D, USS Prometheus, USS Sao Paulo, USS Sutherland, USS Valiant, USS Voyager, and probably others - all spanning more than a century. Damn that guy gets around.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
It was never my point to say that the info on the plaques were to be canon or not. At the time of writing my original post, I was just thinking that the props and set department were thinking about UESPA and decided to put it there on the plaque. All I wanted to do in that post was say that a certain plaque did have UESPA on it and to point out where it was on it.
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"Where No Man Has Gone Before" Chapter 3-Extra Sensory Power
Lt. Cmdr. Gary Mitchell: "The Nightingale Woman, written by Tarbolde of the Canopus Planet back in 1996. It's funny you picked that one doctor." Dr. Dehner: "Why?" Lt. Cmdr. Gary Mitchell: "That is one of the most passionate love sonnets of the past couple of centuries."
This date, 1996, is confirmed by "Space Seed". Other episodes-"Shore Leave", "Tomorrow is Yesterday", and "The Savage Curtain"-confirmed that the series takes place in the late 22nd century.
As for the other comment related to dating, here it is- "The Squire of Gothos" Chapter 2-General Trelane
Lt. Cmdr. Jaeger: "Note the period, Captain. 900 light years from Earth. It's what be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough."
The period that Jaeger mentioned in his conversation with Captain Kirk is never identified by Jaeger. So, we don't have a beginning year. Example, if the Napoleonic Period is identified, then we can add 900 to 1800 and get 2700. Since we don't have this critical piece of information, the information is not relevant to dating, rather it is relevant to the distance between Earth and Gothos.
I didn't include every piece of historical dates from the first series. Dates missing are the dual between Hamilton and Burr, Napoleon's reign, the laws of Hammurabi, the laws of Moses, etc.
Furthermore, I omitted certain dates that I see on other web sites. These are from "Miri", "The Return of the Archons", and "The Apple". In each of these episodes, the crew was speculating as to the dating of events. In each and every case, the inhabitants were ignorant of the dates of the events.
And after watching the episodes, I did see a pattern with Captain Kirk. If another officer suggested the dating of an event, Captain Kirk accepted the dating without question. An exception to this is if Captain Kirk suggested the date, as in "Space Seed" for the DY-100 Class ships, where he is reciting from memory.
And a further note, before I list my sources. In "Journey to Babel", Surak's age is given in Vulcan years.
List of episodes with dateable events:
"The Cage" "Where No Man Has Gone Before" "The Corbomite Maneuver" "The Man Trap" "Charlie X" "Balance of Terror" "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" "Dagger of the Mind" "The Conscience of the King" "The Galileo Seven" "Court Martial" "The Menagerie, Part 1" "Shore Leave" "The Squire of Gothos" "Tomorrow is Yesterday" "The Return of the Archons" "A Taste of Armageddon" "Space Seed" "This Side of Paradise" "The Devil in the Dark" "The City on the Edge of Forever" "Operation--Annihilate!" "Metamorphosis" "Who Mourns for Adonais?" "Amok Time" "Wolf in the Fold" "The Changeling" "The Deadly Years" "The Trouble with Tribbles" "Bread and Circuses" "Journey to Babel" "A Private Little War" "Obsession" "A Piece of the Action" "By Any Other Name" "Return to Tomorrow" "Patterns of Force" "The Ultimate Computer" "The Omega Glory" "Assignment: Earth" "Spectre of the Gun" "The Enterprise Incident" "Spock's Brain" "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" "Plato's Stepchildren" "That Which Survives" "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" "The Lights of Zetar" "Requiem for Methuselah" "The Savage Curtain" "All Our Yesterdays"
On an endnote, Every timeline is an interpretation of the canonical facts as presented to us. There is no right or wrong timeline.
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]
"The period that Jaeger mentioned in his conversation with Captain Kirk is never identified by Jaeger. So, we don't have a beginning year. Example, if the Napoleonic Period is identified, then we can add 900 to 1800 and get 2700. Since we don't have this critical piece of information, the information is not relevant to dating, rather it is relevant to the distance between Earth and Gothos."
From what I remember, it is heavily implied that Trelane is viewing the Napoleonic age. I haven't seen the episode in a while, but you can probably work out start and end ranges. Still, for TOS to have been in either the 23rd or 22nd centuries, Trelance would have to have been watching either the 13th or 14th centuries, and both of them seem wrong.
And, to my knowledge, the first "future" date we are given is in Star Trek II, when McCoy gives Kirk his 2285 Romulan Ale. Which rather heavily implies than ST II is set after 2285. I do really doubt that TOS took place over 86 years before that film.
I will grant you, there are a fair few episodes that throw out "two hundred years ago" when referring to the (then) present day. But there are others that imply much smaller and greater distances. And the TOS writer's bible did say that the show was set in the 23rd century. So, you can either take some evidence from the show, and run with that, or you can take other evidence, and go with TBTB. And future episodes are slightly more likely to stick to that.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
posted
In my last post, I did a mistake. I spelled Sarek's name as Surak. Oops.
I feel that after reading the posts that responded to my initial and follow-up posts that not every word was read.
This timeline is based on those events and using the most consistent dating system as found in the first series. I didn't use the later series or movies for this timeline.
Still, I'd like to always combine TOS with the TOS movies when doing the timing thing. Using TOS as a standalone isn't such a good idea because it never paid strict attention to timelines by itself - timing only became an issue when the Trek universe was expanded. And the references that best nail down the TOS era seem to come from the TOS movies, like the Romulan ale date or the references to 15 years of Khan's shore leave etc.
One can of course construct relatively logical timelines out of TOS alone, but the references to TOS being exactly 200 years past the late 1900s are very few - Kirk's "just about right" for the 200yr reference in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", or Mitchell's "a couple of hundred years ago" reference in "WNMHGB" could just as easily be taken to confirm the 300 year figure that was later made official. Only "Space Seed" really seems to have a good solid 200yr reference - and it's counterbalanced by that *relatively* solid 900yr reference in "Squire of Gothos". This sort of thing just yells for additional material for clarification, and the TOS movies provide it nicely.
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