Loss of 10,000 ships by the JH would probably require losses of several thousands of SF and Klingon ships (taking to account that JH ships are on the average small and weak compared with their Alpha counterparts, due to the large number of those smallish "attack ships"). This is within the realm of possibility; if in addition to the 2,800 JH ships lost in the wormhole, the whole Alpha defence fleet of 2,400 was lost in the battle of retaking DS9 (which I doubt), this would amount to half the losses already.

In any case, the JH had shipbuilding capabilities that probably overwhelmed the opponents ten to one or better. They were short of forces in the crucial battle over the wormhole in "SoA" when able to deploy just 2,400 ships or so. Many of these ships were lost. But a year and a half later, the JH had tens of thousands of ships again, while the Feds/Klingons were now short of ships in their most crucial battle, despite not having any other front to fight on at the time.

This I see as a crucial issue in the war: the Feds and their allies did not initially realize how rapidly the Dominion beachhead could build ships even when isolated from the Gamma quadrant. They thus fought too "timidly" at first, while an early suicide attack with 95% losses would have resulted in fewer overall casualties.

With this JH growth potential given, it would also be logical to assume constant superheavy JH losses. Otherwise, why didn't the JH steamroller over their opponents with the help of huge reserves, but instead lost the war?

2800 ships were lost in just one engadgement.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Beyond that, anything is possible. And perhaps future events will give us a "preferred interpretation", if Starfleet continues to expand due to advances in CGI, or then is cut to size for the purposes of telling peacetime stories of the usual "we are the only starship in range" variety.

Wormhole: 2800

Battle to retake DS9. They had 1254 ships in the engadgement, if the alliance broke through a section of that fleet, its not inconcieveable that they lost 200 or so vessels. Perhaps more.

Therefore we're at 3000.

Add to that vessels lost during the initial Federation Klingon attack on the shipyards at Taurus 3. Perhaps 50 ships.

Add another 50 ships lost retaking DS9. How many ships lost destroying in shipyards in episode 2 of season 7? I'd say at least another 50.

Now 3150.

Vessels lost in the final engadement of the war? Heaps, by the sound of it.

Note, that the losses in the multiple thousands are not impossible. For instance, when the breen first entered the war (Changing face of evil) they disabled or destroyed 311 vessels in the chintoka engadgement.

The bulks of the 9th fleet. If you take into account that the 9th fleet is (minimum) 300 hundred ships, and there are an absolute minimum of 20 fleets.....(you'd need that many just to protect the major federation worlds....).

Here's a fact that has been not been noted as yet. Gowron stated that 1500 ships would be holding one front against the Dominion. Worf stated they would be outnumbered 20:1. That's on the Bajoran front. What about the vulcan front, and the Romulan front? My point is that for the allies to hold their territory they must have a comparable number of ships. Therefore losses of 5000 + ships aren't unrealistic.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Starfleet organizes itself into four Armadas (for organization purposes, you understand). These Armadas are commanded individually by a Fleet Admiral, who reports to the Fleet Supreme Commander, who is also the Senior Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief (appointed from the Fleet Admirals by the Federation Council).

Each Armada is split into ten Fleets. Each Fleet, about 1,000 ships, is commanded by an Admiral.

Fleets are broken up into five Task Forces of about 200 ships each, and are commanded by a Vice Admiral.

Task Forces are subdivided into four Attack Wings of about fifty ships, and are commanded by a Rear Admiral (UH).

Attack Wings are further broken into Squadrons of ten ships, and are commanded by a Commodore (captain "fragged" to flag rank) or Rear Admiral (LH).

This is all conjecture, BTW. I do believe the senior Starfleet Officer is C-I-C due to dialogue in "Star Trek VI", where a Starfleet Admiral (and not the President) is addressed as "CIC"

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Honestly, its hard to know. How many fronts were there? Where did the Dominion push the hardest? How did Federation member world and allies help and where? What other AQ races sided with the Dominion? Did the Dominion send task forces a roundabout way to strike at the "rear" of the Allied Forces, forcing other confrontations?

I'm going to limit my answers to Starfleet/UFP only.

Okay, these are the conclusions I'm working on. At no time were more than one and a half Armadas (fifteen thousand ships), engaged in the various front line areas. The other vessels were undergoing repairs, conducting other missions, or patrolling remote areas of the UFP or Allied powers. Now, those ships on the line would be rotated with ships off the line, so its a good bet that the majority of Starfleet would at some time or another see action. Figure two years of heavy combat ...

I would estimate that 10 - 15% of Starfleet is wrecked totally -- no hope of repair ... either totally destroyed, or damaged beyond the point of repair. That may not sound like much, but its around 6,000 starships. Figure an average crew of ... 250 sound right? You're looking at maybe a million and a half Starfleet officers and crew dead right there alone (approx. number of course, given that ship crew size varies, and people may have been able to escape).

I'd put the number of Starfleet ships damaged enough to need a trip to the drydock at a bit higher ... maybe 20%, which would mean around 8,000 ships -- again, more or less. Now, the question becomes how fast can Starfleet get these ships back into operation? How many drydocks are there? The reality is, that when the War ends, you're going to have a shitload of Starships sitting around waiting for their turn in drydock. No matter how big Starfleet and the UFP might be, I doubt anyone could have foreseen needing to refit several thousand ships at the same time. Any ship damaged enough to need a refit probably also took heavy casualties, so we could easily put the number of casualties from badly damaged ships at say a million or so?

The REAL casualties would come from Starfleet Ground Troops (Marines or otherwise). I'd imagine the Dominion's Jem'Hadar and Cardassian ground troops would be rather difficult to root from their emplacements once they've hit a world. I'm picturing some real nasty ground combat here, where it pretty much comes down to the individual soldier and his/her phaser rifle against the enemy ... ground taken one foot, and one life, at a time. I don't know how many worlds the Dominion may have grabbed, or landed troops on (which would then require Fed troops to go in), but you can bet these casualties are also very high ... much higher than whatever Starfleet's officers and crew are suffering.

But the aftermath is what you're interested in, right?

Starfleet is in trouble. 6,000 ships destroyed, almost another 10,000 completely out of service for quite a while (and drydocks and repair facilities swamped with work). This means that over one/third of Starfleet's fleet power is out of service. That's baaaad. It means everybody else is running around as fast as they can doing three jobs and being polite all at the same time.

It's safe to say that almost everyone in the Federation knows SOMEONE who died during the war -- friend, neighbor, family member, etcetra (oh, I think the Dominion - esp. the Cardies - would consider non-military targets valid military objectives, so civie casualties are very high). So, Starfleet's probably suffering a shortage of recruitment. People don't want to join Starfleet and die, and for the past few years, from Wolf 359 on, that's whats been happening. Now it really hit home, and Starfleet is understaffed.

That's my opinion

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
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"Mr. Vice President, in all due respect, it is - I'm not sure 80 percent of the people get the death tax. I know this: 100 percent will get it if I'm the president." - George W. Bush

Well, yes, they've been hit hard. Let's take a few numbers from "BoBW II". Shelby said they'd have the fleet back up in a year. Only 40 ships in a year! If the Feds have taken several thousand ships' worth of losses, they'll be rebuilding for a long time. On the other hand, they could *really* ramp up production of the smaller classes and have flotillas of Defiants etc guarding the borders while they build some more yards and dig in to the task of building capital ships. Besides, they may have nicked a few bits of Dom tech - "Oy, you! Teach us how to build dem ships so fast!"

Klg:-

I can see Martok bringing the Empire a lot closer to the Feds, especially with Worf wispering in his ear. Also, Martok won't stand for any red tape: being, by his own admission, not a politician, he'll steamroller reforms etc through the Council.

Rom:-

Either isolation or USSR-style holding of 'liberated' assets. Koval may manipulate things so the Roms get a little closer to the Feds (assassinating hawks in favour of doves etc).

Breen:-

Watched. Very carefully. And the Allies will probably want to have some of their tech, too. Bio ships? Yes, we'll have some of that.

Baj:-

Fed members, simple as that. Having the Bajoran Militia hook up with SF will solve a little of that manpower shortage.

Cardies:-

They'll struggle, end up taking Fed handouts (probably with a Bajoran in charge of the aid effort!!!), and become a protectorate/member.

Dom:-

I think Odo will have a job on his hands converting the other Founders, but will make it. I think they may just be willing to listen to the man who just saved their race.

Borg:-

I can't believe no-one's mentioned the lugnuts! Surely it's time they came at the Feds again, with a few more ships this time.

Note: VOY7 implies SF itn't in dire straits men/materiel wise.

Er, you mean VOY7? Season Seven of Voyager? The notorious anti-continuity show? Anyway, how could that show depict Starfleet? They're on the other end of the dammed galaxy!

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
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