capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
A couple of points to think about:
Humans havent been 'out there' too much. Maybe us being between Vulcan and Andor isnt such a big deal, just because up until 9 weeks previous we were not a serious interstallar civilization thet would notice them or be noticed by them.
Possibly, since we werent exploring the sector aggressively, we were only carrying on trade and relations with he few planets the Vulcans told us to (Go to Draylax they say, and we skip over the ones they say 'oh, you dont need to go to Andor'). Remember we dont even have detailed maps of the species of our own sector at this point, the Vulcans do though.
Terra Nova might have been the only uninhabited Earth like planet. Or maybe it wasnt, but it was the only one the Vulcans chose to inform us about (other inhabitable worlds could have existed, but belonged to other governments the Vulcans didnt want us to offend by taking their future colony, or setting up shop too close for them to be comfortable)
The Vulcan Monastery could have been close to Andor on the other side of Terra Thats why they didnt just monitor it from Vulcan itself.. remember the Vulcans and the Andorians have the ability to quickly cross these distances that we did not until recently. I think that saying Andor and Vulcan are 'close to each other' could refer to a difference of a lot more light years than the non-warp-5 capable humans would consider 'close'
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
quote:Originally posted by Timo: In contrast, we know that the tech people, who are in the habit of giving us all these cool "no difference" factoids in the form of obscure computer screen readouts or dedication plaques or whatnot, do have an interest in preserving "Trek lore". Okuda tries to work the cubed warp-speed factor into "Enterprise" even though it's a losing battle, since he thinks it's part of the original Trek mythos. I'm sure he's making a similar attempt with the 40 Eri thing, and he's more likely to succeed there since no plot demands are hampering that effort.
I'm not sure. I would assume Okuda was responsible for the "40 Eridani Fleet Yards" plaque... I'd have to think that were they at Vulcan they would be called the "Vulcan Fleet Yards." Personally, I'd rather Vulcan not be at 40 Eridani, because that gives us more freedom to custom-build the system.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: I don't see how my first and third points are contradictory.
My third point is still rather scientifically accurate. By 'waste heat', I was using the term as it applies from the Second Law of Thermodynamics <> Anyway, my point stands that if they were so close, if anybody were so close, we would've heard 'em by now.
Your first point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because Enterprise is fiction and all fiction is speculative.
Your third point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because it yields results that are scientifically contradictory.
My point is that you can use one argument or the other, but not both. The two arguments contradict each other. The third point cannot yield scientifically contradictory results because speculative fiction is pointless, that is, it has no science to yield scientific results.
Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not? However I disagree on it being scientifically accurate. My point still stands: unless the civilization has evolved to a Type Two, it isn't going to be detectable at any range at all. (You do know what a Type two is, don't you?) Have you read this?
OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nyrath the nearly wise: Your first point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because Enterprise is fiction and all fiction is speculative.
Your third point says: All this stellar distance information is pointless because it yields results that are scientifically contradictory.
My point is that you can use one argument or the other, but not both. The two arguments contradict each other. The third point cannot yield scientifically contradictory results because speculative fiction is pointless, that is, it has no science to yield scientific results.
Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not? However I disagree on it being scientifically accurate. My point still stands: unless the civilization has evolved to a Type Two, it isn't going to be detectable at any range at all. (You do know what a Type two is, don't you?) Have you read this?
My first point was that the term 'speculative fiction' was rather redundant. Nothing more.
And yes I know what a Type Two Civilization is. No technological society could be maintaining a closed loop system, so the Second Law of Thermodynamics states. Whether, waste heat, greenhouse gases, radio or television waves, there would be some evidence of 'bleed-off' which would be detectable. We've been listenting to the sky for thirty some odd years now (not sure about the number, but the point is made). If Vulcan is seven some light years away and has been technological enough to produce an interstellar traveling offshoot race, then there would've been some evidence of their existence.
Frankly, I've forgotten my original point from way back when, as its almost 3 in the morning and my BAC is not zero, but if Vulcans were there, we would know it - for whatever that's worth.
And please don't insult me by implication.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
I consider 'speculative fiction' to be the better term when referring to scenarios about future societies, just because the 'science' isnt always the star. Some stories very definitely have science as the star and achieve dramatic effect very well, some science fiction from the 50s, 60s, and 70s that was done with the actual orbital physics and propulsion equations in mind and featured very little dialogue or character-focus, but had a plot and were enlightening to say the least, but Star Trek uses science not as the focus, but as a storytelling tool to further the plots. Roddenberry wanted to show us the future of humanity, not the future of science. He wanted to speculate about a society where many of the negative aspects we live with today had been removed and mankind could face the universe as an intelligent, honorable group. Thats why the characters of Star Trek are so appealin g but the science of Star Trek doesnt stand up to much scrutiny. 'Speculating' refers to inferring the possibility of how humans would evolve when certain variables of our current world are removed, and the science is very much secondary.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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It's a TV show. Is it really neccessary to squash people's attempts to place fictional elements in our real galaxy? We all know they're not really there ... I mean, c'mon ...
posted
Might I recommend the Internet Stellar Database for searching the locations, positions, and classifications of real stars in our galaxy. It's very convenient and has an easily readable format.
Example:
Here's a list of all stars that are between 18 and 22 light-years from Sol. These would be candidates for the location of Terra Nova.
There are three G-type stars in this region - 82 Eridani, Delta Pavonis, and Xi B�otis.
Moving on, there are eight stars that are within 10 light-years of 40 Eridani... but 7 of them are Type M or below. The eight is Epsilon Eridani, which is closer to Earth and therefore unlikely to be the location of Andor.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
posted
Is this a good time to say that T'pol said Andoria (NOT Andor) is the planet of the Andorians?
-------------------- "And they had other stuff (...) like pictures of the Vulcan woman on Enterprise." "OOOOhhh! Uhm, I mean: Nerds!"
- Willow and Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
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quote: On the second, yes, I know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is, and I too would like an avoidance of insult by implication.
I don't believe I implied that you didn't know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics was. Actually, I thought it was rather obvious from your previous post that you know quite well what it is.
quote: Well, of course you ment "waste heat" in reference to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. How could you not?
How could I imply that you didn't know what it was with a quote like that?
[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
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That Technical Manual also claims that UFP Headquarters is located lightyears from Earth in the form of a ringed Space Station which contains a synthetic ecosystem including parks, lakes and canals, and a 'sky.'
I don't know how credible the location is. Or maybe I do!
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Actually, it's been referred to as both on DS9. So either is correct. For some reason, the majority of fans seem to prefer "Andor."
Probably because it was called Andor in both fan and licensed circles for a good thirty years before anybody ever even thought of the word "Andoria."
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