Enterprise is currently set in the year 2152. According to Tom Paris, "when the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd-century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." My impression is that he is speaking about economy of the Federation, won't you agree?
So, my question is: where's the money in the Enterprise? Logically speaking, Enterprise is rather not a charity ship, so they should receive some kind of payment. That was especially visible (or, rather, invisible) in "Two Days and Two Nights".
Oh well, yet another tiny thing that Berman and Braga forgot (this time I think they really simply forgot that there still may be some money-based economy in that era).
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Shik
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As Douglas Adams so keenly pointed out, bars on Antares don't take American Express. Or even Visa.
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Not to mention that currency in some form at least survives into the mid- to late-23rd century.
Take the on screen evidence.
In "Errand of Mercy." While planning on what to do about the Klingon incursion on Organia, Kirk tells Spock, "The Federation's invested a lot of money into our training, it's time to pay up."
In "The Apple." Kirk tells Scotty, "You've earned your pay for the week."
Not to mention the charge of "credits" for merchandise in "The Trouble with Tribbles."
The famous line from "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home," adds to the confusion of the economy of the Federation.
quote: Taylor I supposed you don't use money in the 23rd Century.
Kirk We don't.
It is often used as confirmation that the Federation does not have a monetary system. Yet, it could also be taken to mean that they don't use hard currency like cash.
Does anyone know when or whereabouts Roddenberry decided explicitly that the Federation does not use money as we know it? Was it with TNG? Or does it go back further, perhaps the development of "Phase: II?"
quote: Originally posted by Kazeite: According to Tom Paris, "when the New World Economy took shape in the late 22nd-century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum." My impression is that he is speaking about economy of the Federation, won't you agree?
Also, Paris could've been referring to the economy of the newly unified Earth in that line, which would've or could've abolished the American dollar. Thus the need no longer for Fort Knox.
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quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: In "The Apple." Kirk tells Scotty, "You've earned your pay for the week."
I think that this falls in line as an idiom, more so than it does to finances. That Scotty's accomplishment was as valuable to the Captain, in that one instance, as what the Captain may normally expect of him for a particular week or mission or whathaveya. To say "You've earned your pay for the week" rather than saying, "You did an exceptional job, Scotty!" seems to be the meaning Kirk really intended.
quote: The famous line from "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home," adds to the confusion of the economy of the Federation. Taylor I supposed you don't use money in the 23rd Century.
Kirk We don't. It is often used as confirmation that the Federation does not have a monetary system. Yet, it could also be taken to mean that they don't use hard currency like cash.
I agree, I think that its not that they carry wallets and purses and fanny packs around with their cold hard cash like we do nowadays; they would more than likely have some sort of database with smartchip technology or a credit card/account which holds some sort of 'universal credits' which anything they acquire requiring said 'credits' can be debited from. Similar to say Quarks voucher system we see in DS9/"First Born"(TNG), or at least, that is an example of how one form of finances is dealt with.
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quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: In "The Apple." Kirk tells Scotty, "You've earned your pay for the week."
I think that this falls in line as an idiom, more so than it does to finances. That Scotty's accomplishment was as valuable to the Captain, in that one instance, as what the Captain may normally expect of him for a particular week or mission or whathaveya. To say "You've earned your pay for the week" rather than saying, "You did an exceptional job, Scotty!" seems to be the meaning Kirk really intended.
except in that same episode, Spock states how much has been invested in his career in Starfleet.
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It might be safe to say that money goes out not by disappearing from the face of earth all at once, but by gradually mutating to or spawning new forms. Which, come to think of it, is more or less what happened to the dinosaurs.
The Kirk era meanings of "to pay", "to be paid", "to cost", "to buy", "to sell" might be incomprehensible to the 21st century audience. Kirk in turn might not understand the concept of paying for food, even if he pays for those antique firearms on the walls of his nice apartment. "Next you claim you pay for electricity, too?"
The Archer era would have concepts more familiar to us, but still on their way to mutating into something weird. And people gallivanting around in a starship would be the last to learn about those developments, of course.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: except in that same episode, Spock states how much has been invested in his career in Starfleet.
Investing has more meanings than where you put your money....in the same sense Starfleet and Picard invested a lot into Ro Laren too, ya know....
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quote:"The Apple"
KIRK "Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?" SPOCK "One hundred, twenty-two thousand, two hundred..." KIRK "Nevermind.. but thanks."
quote:"Errand of Mercy"
KIRK "Starfleet has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return."
I can also point out the shenanigans in the K-7 bar about paying for things, Beverly Crusher having the roll of cloth billed to her ship in "Encounter at Farpoint", etc..
and that's only the more tangible ones.. leaving out the "I'd give real money if he'd shut up.." kind of lines..
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quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike:
quote:"The Apple"
KIRK "Do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?" SPOCK "One hundred twenty-two thousand, two hundred..." KIRK "Nevermind.. but thanks."
quote:"Errand of Mercy"
KIRK "Starfleet has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return."
I can also point out the shenanigans in the K-7 bar about paying for things, Beverly Crusher having the roll of cloth billed to her ship in "Encounter at Farpoint", etc..
and that's only the more tangible ones.. leaving out the "I'd give real money if he'd shut up.." kind of lines..
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I guess I see your point...but I still think that they have evolved to other forms of currency or investments that calculate to "credits" or what have ya...outside of the tangable "gold" and later, "latinum".
Even today isn't there work on systems to just pick something up and you just tell them your name and they automatically bill your account without any exchange of currency? Even if in the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Centuries this exists in a more evolved form they may still call it "money" even though they aren't getting a paycheck in hand.
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There can still be explicit mentions of "money", even if the Federation doesn't use it. A person may not need money on an everyday basis, because they're provided w/ housing, food, etc., but money would still exist in the galaxy for the purposes of buying things off interstellar traders an such.
Probably when Crusher bought her cloth, or people bought things on K-7, it was some sort of credits system a lot like electronic money today, only not thought of as "money".
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Money (or 'credits') are probably still the best way to trade stuff. My primitive 21st century brain says that it's a lot easier trading for credits, then with goats or salt.
I assume you don't have to pay for food, energy, housing, health care and other commodities. But you possibly DO have to 'pay' for rare or just expensive things, like owning a personal starship/shuttle, or using Starfleet cargo bays (like mentioned in the DS9TM). But it is probably just a way to somewhat control the supply/demand issues. If anyone could just get their hands on a shuttle, or if anyone could just store their goods in a Starfleet cargo bay, you run into problems.
That leaves the question of where/how you acquire credits. Possibly only by trading goods/services, and that those credits are only for the faceless organization, and not for any particular person.
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my own personal theory is some sort of socialized capitalism..
theoretically, if you eliminated the need to work in exchange for goods and services you need to survive, people would of course stop working and society would collapse..
but everyone always says, that the humans work not for their livelihood, but to better themselves, and that money is not an issue (i dismiss everytime a Trek character says 'we don't need money' as a translation of 'money is not necessary for survival'.. basically that there is money, but not everyone chooses to employ it)
so food.. we've seen the Replimat, which is replicators that give out free food to whoever wants it.. presumably you can get free food, water and oxygen, pending availability, anywhere in the 'civilized' Federation.. housing always seems plentiful too, i'm sure that if you file as a citizen you can request free housing to be assigned to you.. this eliminates the basic needs of life, food and shelter.
But what if you want really nice food? or non-replicated food? or a really nice house? you've got to work for the credits to buy it. So you could accept a small piece of basic housing assigned to you by the local government of wherever you live, or you could work and receive a salary until your credit rating rates you getting a bigger one.
this knocks the bottom rung off the socio-economic ladder, there would be no starvation or homelessness. But people would still compete for the higher valued amenities.
And those that are sick of the liberal handout system would of course go out and colonize new worlds where there is more of a struggle to survive.
And since security isnt guaranteed in this system, it still leaves an opening for those that want to join the quasi-military armed exploration forces, for filling the role of the planets protection.
We've seen what happens on Trek when people work because of wanting to rather than needing to, Richard Bashir hops from job to job doing whatever catches his fancy, serving on a passenger starship, being an architect, etc etc.. he works to satisfy himself, not to satisfy his needs. but weve seen that through his work he was able to purchase genetic engineering for Jules, so obviously he wasnt just lazing about on Earth in the 'taking the handout' class.
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