Except that, for all we know, that incident might have ended up being hused hushed, especially when the brand new Federation was trying to get it's Prime Directive off the ground.
"We need it. Remember how bad the FC with the Klingons went?"
"Well, it didn't go that badly, until a couple of years later."
"Yes it did."
"No it didn't."
"Did did did did did did did did did..."
"Fine, it did".
Also, propoganda during the 23rd century hostilities might have clouded judgement on the issue, and that has stuck as common knowledge in the 24th century (even if it's inaccurate).
One curious (and annoying) thing about Trek fans is that they seem to assume everything spoken on screen is 100% true, and that they are representing an unbiased POV.
Q. What started WWII? A1. Germany invading Poland. A2. Germany invading half a million other places and refusing to stop even though we've asked them really nicely. A3. The treaty of Versailles. A4. WWI. A5. (If you're an American and turning up late) Pearl Habour.
Sure, the actual FC incident wasn't a disaster, but if it in turn led directly into hostilities (and directly into can easily have a space of a couple of years), then I don't see the problem.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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You know, I think we all agree that with some effort everything can be rationalised... But it's another thing whenever those rationalisations are logical or not But my point is, if there are no continuity problems, then we wouldn't have to worry about making up elaborate explanations... The classic example are ENT Romulans who already have cloaking device. As it was noted by other people, it was completely unnecessary for them to have cloaking device (except for BILC factor, that is) and make Minefield an exciting episode...
Anyway,
Except that, for all we know, that incident might have ended up being hused hushed,
We had Terrans, Vulcans, Klingons and Denobulans involved - I can't exactly imagine Vulcans or Klingons "hushing" that incident.
especially when the brand new Federation was trying to get it's Prime Directive off the ground.
Judging from the amount of "Boy, I wish we had some kind of Prime Directive!" episodes, there's plenty of other foul-ups for their PD campaign
Also, propoganda during the 23rd century hostilities might have clouded judgement on the issue, and that has stuck as common knowledge in the 24th century (even if it's inaccurate).
Except that we are talking about Picard here, who certainly would not be limited to common knowledge.
One curious (and annoying) thing about Trek fans is that they seem to assume everything spoken on screen is 100% true, and that they are representing an unbiased POV.
Well, in that case, if we can't trust Picard, then who can we trust?
Sure, the actual FC incident wasn't a disaster, but if it in turn led directly into hostilities (and directly into can easily have a space of a couple of years), then I don't see the problem.
But did it led directly into hostilities? No, it did not. It was Judgement event that led directly into hostilities (starting with Duras in Expanse)
(and Duras apparent demise is another inconsistency in itself... I mean, if Duras is dead, then he obviously can't have children anymore... unless he already has some )
Registered: Jan 2003
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Don't overlook the obvious. Earth stuck it's nose into Klingon matters, forcing them to accept help they didn't want. That implies that the klingons are weak and that we are superior to them. klingons being klingons... they would naturally be trying to one-up us for centuries and in general, try to make-up for our insult.
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As much as I like Picard, he is not The Most Intelligent Man In The Universe Ever.
Duras could have easily have had children (as you point out). Or brothers.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: Don't overlook the obvious. Earth stuck it's nose into Klingon matters, forcing them to accept help they didn't want.
Um... but we are talking about about FC from Federation perspective, not from the Klingon perspective. And as far as 2152 Earth is concerned, FC issue with Klingons is closed - now we are given entirely different reason why tgey are pissed off.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: As much as I like Picard, he is not The Most Intelligent Man In The Universe Ever.
Well, honestly... I don't like Picard, but I realize that some people may think that he actually is The Most Intelligent Man In The Universe Ever.
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I hate to say it, but I have said this...
Well, "great minds think alike" or smth
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Registered: Jan 2003
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Well in light of the 'give a penny, take a penny' concept...here is my two cents worth on the Klingons, some of which was again mentioned by Kaz...
My problem with continuity busting is that there are too many Klingons too soon. Their first contact wasn't as disasterous as stated in the ep. "First Contact" [TNG], nor did it have anything to do with Star Fleet changing its first contact policy (both canon facts until Enterprise got ahold of the topic). Disasterous usually means people die or ships explode, Archer got shot by a Suliban in the leg...wooo, disasterous!
Other than that, their first space encounter with Klingons was equally as lame...(SEE: "Unexpected")
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You don't like Picard? Do you also prefer Smashmouth to Queen?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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I don't remember when or where but it was either on TOS or TNG... I'm thinking it was the TNG episode where Riker goes undercover on that weird planet and loses most of his memory. Anyway Picard said something about how they study races before they make first contact with them because of some disaster--- is this the line about the Klingons?
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posted
The episode was "First Contact", which had, what, eight writers? The line was written by Dennis Bailey, who did a re-write of the episode, and also co-wrote "Tin Man." The line is "disasterous first contact with the Klingons." It never specifies HOW first contact was disasterous, but apparently lots of people were thinking thousands of Klingons armed with swords hacking up humans or something.
quote:Disasterous usually means people die or ships explode,
Who are you to say? Disasterous could also mean "Whoops we left our advanced tech there and now they're about a century further ahead on the industrial development stage than they should be."
In the case of the Klingon Empire, I would think coming up and saying (as far as they're concerned) "Hi, we're humans and we're smarter than you and able to get more stuff done, you really suck" would, well gosh, qualify as pretty darn bad.
quote:Originally posted by J: I don't remember when or where but it was either on TOS or TNG... I'm thinking it was the TNG episode where Riker goes undercover on that weird planet and loses most of his memory. Anyway Picard said something about how they study races before they make first contact with them because of some disaster--- is this the line about the Klingons?
I had just said it two posts prior:
quote:Their first contact wasn't as disasterous as stated in the ep. "First Contact" [TNG], nor did it have anything to do with Star Fleet changing its first contact policy (both canon facts until Enterprise got ahold of the topic).
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quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Disasterous could also mean "Whoops we left our advanced tech there and now they're about a century further ahead on the industrial development stage than they should be."
I don't think so. I mean, "disasterous" definition is pretty clear (heh, I starting to sound like Guardian 2000 ) I agree that your both examples can qualify as pretty darn bad things, but not extremaly bad or terrible, as in 'disasterous'.
What was so bad in FC with Klingons that could cause it to be used as an example 200 years later? If anything, it could be only used as an example of good First Contact, slightly messed up at the beginning, but then smoothed over and carried to the triumphant end.
(BTW, has anyone of you had the chance to read Broken Bow novelisation? In this particular scene Klaangs only worry was that he would be shot in the back by Sulibans and considered cowardly (he also wonders if he can run backwards. No, really) So when Moore shoots him he's almost grateful, because he shoots him in the front.)
Also note, that althought I don't like early Klingons too, this doesn't technically count as continuity violation, unfortunately.
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Because although I consider introducing Klingons in 2151 to be a mistake, it's technically not a continuity violation, so it's beoyond the scope of current discussion.
Registered: Jan 2003
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PS: I hadn't a clue if the line in "First Contact" was about the Klingons... which is why I asked, I didn't even know if I was talking about "First Contact"--- remember not everyone knows the episodes act and scene by heart [no offense intended to those who do, I was just making a point].
NRFB
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Topic Closed
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) I agree that your both examples can qualify as pretty darn bad things, but not extremaly bad or terrible, as in 'disasterous'.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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