posted
I think that it's easier to say that the Treaty of Algeron upheld the Neutral Zone... perhaps even changing it's borders [explaining the difference between BoT and The Defector... or was it another episode, the one with the Iconian gates... neutral zone is said to be lightyears wide].
I think Algeron is what calmed nerves after the Tomed Incident in 2311 and it is not the one from 2160's for the original war[s]. And it was this treaty that also ended Starfleet's development of cloaking technology.
Of course, the question is what does the Tomed Incident have to do with Starfleet cloaking technology? Could Tomed have been Starfleet's cloaking research facility and the Romulans found out about it? Could Starfleet have had a cloaked fleet at Tomed which utterly decimated the incoming Romulan fleet... or actually caused such a skirmish that it totally demoralized both causing the Romulans to demand Starfleet stop developing the tech and Starfleet was glad to accept that to end the situation.
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quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: It seems fairly self explainatory that the Treaty of Algeron was created in association with the Neutral Zone and is tied into the Battle of Cheron. This also seems to be confirmed in the ST: Encyclopedia. The 60-year reference to the cloaking device easily could have been an amendment to the original treaty.
Your idea of "fairly self-explanatory" sounds more like "one possible interpretation" to me.
Algeron could just as easily be a later treaty which reaffirmed the Neutral Zone, or maybe even replaced it with a new one. (Ex Astris Scientia has a graphic which overlays the neutral zones from TOS: "Balance of error" and Nemesis, and they don't quite match.)
If there was an amendment it seems odd that neither of the "sixty year" conversations in "Pegasus" mention it. Both refer to the treaty itself. And Riker's argument with Pressman aboard the Pegasus makes it sound like the prohibition against cloaking technology was an original part of the treaty. Admittedly it's not explicit, but it just sounds wrong that Pressman blames "that treaty" rather than some hypothetical amendment.
(As an aside, does anyone else find it interesting that the "Pegasus" dialogue--however you interpret it--opens the door to Starfleet using cloaking devices at the end of the 23rd century?)
Dragging this tangent back to the original topic, I'd say that the door is open for ENT to write the Romulan war any way they like, even if they were as tight-ass@%&, er, as concerned about continuity as some of us are. Which they aren't.
Marian
PS:
quote:[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarianLH: [qb] Noncanon sources speak of a Klingon-Romulan alliance during TOS, but canon doesn't mention that.
Just for the record, that wasn't me. That was Timo, quoted by me.
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quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: As an aside, does anyone else find it interesting that the "Pegasus" dialogue--however you interpret it--opens the door to Starfleet using cloaking devices at the end of the 23rd century?)
As a side note, the novelisations of Star Trek V and Star Trek VI run with this idea, the former stating that the cloaking device isn't installed on the Enterprise-A yet, and the second one having them use it to get into Klingon Space (although they know it likely won't work against the sensor stations at the border).
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Sounds like the Klingon's hatred for the Romulans stems from all the times they got their assses kicked by them between STVI and TNG.
Well it goes back further than that. In "Blood Oath" there was mention of the Battle of Klach D'Kel Brakt which was known as a legendary Klingon victory over the Romulans. Odo said it occured "almost a century ago" so that means that some pretty nasty relations between the two date back as far as 2270.
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posted
Since novelizations were already mentioned, I'd like to advertise the David George III novel "Serpents Among the Ruins" now.
As some may already know... (= SPOILERS!)
... George suggests that IRW Tomed was a Romulan ship that (apparently) performed a suicide strike against RNZ Starfleet outposts, using her quantum singularity drive as a big bomb. A war nearly resulted, but was averted when the Feds agreed to sign a rather humiliating treaty where they agreed to abandon cloaking tech. Algeron in turn was a space station used for diplomatic negotiations, built at the site of an old battle (which jibes with the old RPG idea of Algeron being a RW battle site). And while the book isn't explicit on this, it seems to suggest there were several "Treaties of Algeron", all associated with this famous negotiating spot.
The novel also examines the Fed-Romulan-Klingon relationships between TUC and Tomed Incident in some detail, and IMHO does it very skilfully - many possibilities are left open, but a lot of intrigue and "historical facts" are still generated.
Teh PW
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posted
Algeron could just as easily be a later treaty which reaffirmed the Neutral Zone, or maybe even replaced it with a new one. (Ex Astris Scientia has a graphic which overlays the neutral zones from TOS: "Balance of error" and Nemesis, and they don't quite match.) *is at work, making beer stew* hmm. does the differences in the maps, both of which are over a 100 years part, take into accound *throws in a miller bear bottle from last week* for irregularities *grabs a pack of smokes, lights on up, takes a puff, and throw both the pack and the light cig into the pot* in the space time continuim? *frowns* ...and the cost of inflation?
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Since novelizations were already mentioned, I'd like to advertise the David George III novel "Serpents Among the Ruins" now.
I bought the book as well, and while an interesting read, I felt sort of cheated by the final depiction of what really happened with the Tomed Incident. I don't know; I guess I just feel it loses the sacrifice that I had imagined.
SPOILERS
Sort of like if someone wrote a story to explain 9/11 was just a plot to make it appear people died, and actually no one was hurt.
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posted
Concerning the E-RW why the heck can't it be just space battles--- with the ground battles being one-sided slaughters.
I doubt there were any ground battles, except for the Romulans opening salvos against Earth colonies. Those colonies would have been wiped out. The remaining question is why didn't the Romulans occupy that territory or what weaponry did Earth use to vaporize any trace of the Romulan ground troops?
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
posted
I imagine ground battles would make the whole "unseen enemy" even sillier than it already was.
Since everyone is throwing in their Tomed Incident theories, I might as well join in.
Since this treaty deals specifically with the NZ and Federation cloaking tech, it stands to reason that whatever the incident was, it might have involved the Neutral Zone and cloaked Starfleet ships.
My pet theory is that cloaked Starfleet vessels are caught on the wrong side of the NZ. The Romulans retaliate against the Federation colony on Tomed. The Federation Council is of course shocked to learn about Starfleet's naughty business, and is only too happy to sign a treaty that reaffirms the Neutral Zone and forces the UFP to abandon cloaking tech.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The end of the war leads to the founding of the UFP? Possibly, but it's not stated anywhere. The war could well have continued beyond the founding of the Federation. Or even been started *after* the founding
Are we considering Picard's Family Album as a canon source??
Here's the entire article from the Founding of the Federation News Article:
------------------ IT'S FEDERATION DAY! 5 sign new UFP Constitution
San Francisco, Earth (GNN)� Declaring it a landmark day in the history of each of their worlds, five envoys today breathed life into the fledgling United Federation of Planets with the signing of the new organization's Constitution amid much pomp and circumstance.
"We are truly entering a brave new world of peace, exploration, and security with the establishment of this Federation," declared Earth ambassador Thomas Vanderbilt, whose remarks were echoed by representatives from Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri.
"Following the end of your world's war with the unseen Romulan enemy, such a union as we create here today is the most logical course of action any of our peoples can take," added Ambassador T'Jan of Vulcan.
UESPA Maj. Gen. Georges E. Picard, an aide to Vanderbilt, noted afterward the irony of the conference�which met in exactly the same fashion as the founders of Earth's old United Nations, who came together only 216 years earlier in this same city in the aftermath of the horrors of another costly war.
"What is occurring here today is one sign that some good can come of such a attitude," Picard noted.
"We defy anyone, even the Romulans, to test our resolve now for collective security," declared Ambassador Nartha Kell of Tellar, while Sarahd of Andor spoke of the future greatness for the infant union and predicted rapid expansion. Ambassador Titus Cheet signed for the newly independant Centauri system.
Today's events were but the ceremonial endgame for the often-tenuous negotiations, which began in earnest after the defeat of hostile forces at Cheron effectively ended the Romulan War only a little more than a year ago. Even today, some sources reported a bitter fracas involving the Tellarite Kell and Sarahd.
Although those taking part today waved off revealing many specific details. The five, after signing, immediately convened the first-ever meeting of the UFP Council long enough to elect Vanderbilt as president, with Sarahd as vice president.
Also, the Council unanimously voted to continue meeting in San Francisco, with an all-new building in the design stages near the historic old Presidio fort and Golden Gate Bridge. Council sources predicted at least three months would be needed before the fledgling UFP bureaucracy would be ready for business. ------------------
So this sounds like the Earth-Romulan war ended 'more than a year' before the founding of the Federation, which would make the treaty 2159 or possibly 2160.
quote:"We defy anyone, even the Romulans, to test our resolve now for collective security," declared Ambassador Nartha Kell of Tellar, while Sarahd of Andor spoke of the future greatness for the infant union and predicted rapid expansion. Ambassador Titus Cheet signed for the newly independant Centauri system.
This just means that the Romulans had skirmishes with a couple of the Federation's other founding member prior to the founding of the Fed.
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quote: I bought the book as well, and while an interesting read, I felt sort of cheated by the final depiction of what really happened with the Tomed Incident. I don't know; I guess I just feel it loses the sacrifice that I had imagined.
I agree; I enjoyed the book but feel that the way the incident occured in it was a bit of a sell-out. IMO the writer went a bit too far in the 'ivulnerable Federation' direction. I agree with Harry that it would've made more sense to have the incident involve a cloaked Federation vessel on the wrong side of the border.
quote: Are we considering Picard's Family Album as a canon source??
I'd forgotten about that; one of the most interesting incredibly obscure finds that've been made.
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