posted
Since the prototype Nebula is now known not to be the Melbourne, is there anyway to attach a name to it? Like say USS LONG BEACH! Which if I remember correctly was the first and only Nuclear powered cruiser in the US Navy. "JUST AN IDEA"
posted
Hey everybody! Anyone who's never seen a conniption before should watch this thread -- I have a feeling if this keeps going as it is currently, something in my brain is gonna pop! *insane giggle*
Okay. *narrows eyes*
I will try to stay cool, calm, and collected. Nothing seen or said anywhere in "Best of Both Worlds" indicated or was meant to indicate that the Excelsior that met the E-D over Jouret IV was the Melbourne. In "The Icarus Factor", we had much mention of the prior ship Riker was offered -- the Aries -- but we never saw it, and everyone seemed to know to which ship everyone else was referring. I always interpreted that first scene in Picard's ready room, from the very first viewing waaaay back in '90, to be intended as follows...
Hanson suggests Shelby as Picard's new XO (under the impression Riker's going to take the Melbourne). Picard says he's happy with Riker (not knowing anything about this). Hanson expresses surprise that Riker's turning down another command (after having presumably discussed it with Picard). Picard asks which ship (since he's not as in the loop as Hanson seems to think). Hanson tells him -- in a tone of voice indicating to me that he figured Riker had discussed all this with his Captain. In other words:
"One's available?" "The Melbourne. (You know, the ship he talked to you about? Have you forgotten already?) It's his if he wants it..."
That's how I interpreted Hanson's tone of voice: mild incredulity.
There's nothing definitive in canon to settle this, so anyone saying the argument's over is just being arrogant to some degree. We had a Nebula-class Melbourne onscreen in "BoBW", "Future Imperfect", "Emissary", and the majority of Deep Space Nine episodes with scenes in Sisko's office; and an Excelsior-class Melbourne seen once in "Emissary". And from this last example, many people (you know who you are) have taken to reading meaning into "BoBW" that may or may not have been there. That's the problem with interpretations -- there are as many interpretations as there are viewers. I personally go with precedent, registry, and quantity and am quite happy with my Nebula-class Melbourne, thank you. Don't think you can change my mind.
--Jonah
Additional: How many of you, if the VFX people who put the Excelsior-Melbourne in "Emissary" hadn't, would still be claiming the Excelsior at Jouret IV was the Melbourne...?
------------------ "It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
posted
For those who say that the writer's implied through ADM Hansen's dialog that the Melbourne was the same Excelsior he arrived on:
Are you just saying that this was yet another mix up between the writers and the VFX department. Maybe the FX guys didn't catch the implication either and decided to show a Nebula?
posted
Peregrinus: "anyone saying the argument's over is just being arrogant to some degree."
You're the arrogant one.
"many people (you know who you are) have taken to reading meaning into "BoBW" that may or may not have been there."
It could be argued that you are one of "those" as well, the way you're interpreting "BoBW".
The impact of the graveyard-scene was heightened when Shelby spotted the Melbourne among the wreckages. That impact hadn't been achieved had it not been implied the admiral had been aboard the Melbourne, hence her feeling of loss.
And as for me being "arrogant", I didn't mean to say the discussion's over, I meant my interest in convincing people like you is over. Big difference.
------------------ Here lies a toppled god, His fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, A narrow and a turnip.
Guys, there are a lot of different ways people can look at this ep. The somberness at the wreckage that was once the Melbourne can either be Riker and Shelby ...
a) mourning Adm. Hanson's death
b) mourning what would of been Riker's death had he taken the ship
Really, it could work either way.
WES1701E == ARGGH!!! I will kill you now!!!
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 **** "The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families." --Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
I don't think Shelby was so aware of the fact (that Riker COULD'VE been on the doomed ship) that it gave her pause.
The Hanson/Picard conversation was not an arrangement to prepare for Wolf 359, it was off the record. It would've taken Riker weeks, if not months, to transfer to a new ship and assuming command, after first wrapping up all the affairs on the big E.
We might as well assume the sorrow in the scene was ascribed to the staff not getting rid of Riker in another three months, he had nowhere to go now.
Now, if Shelby did NOT arrive in the Melbourne with Hanson then she had no connection to the ship at all, it was just another ship that a colleague (that she had no connection to) might've transferred too.
------------------ Here lies a toppled god, His fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, A narrow and a turnip.
posted
Nimrod -- I was positing that those who are saying the argument is settled are being arrogant (because they then go on to "explain" how their position is the only correct one), while my simply continuing to cling to my interpretation WITHOUT pre-emptively declaring that my "revelation" will quell all disagreement... is not.
I am well aware of the problems facing both Nebula-Melbourne and Excelsior-Melbourne directions. Whenever someone declares definitively that it is one or the other, I feel compelled to bring up those problems to see how they deal with them. So far, the rationalizations have been... lacking. Therefore, I stay with my take on things, leave the resolution in limbo, and don't let it bother me much -- except when someone has the vocal epiphany that everything is settled because of some new evidence they then present that is about as newsworthy as the discovery of fire.
If anything is presented as supporting evidence, it ought to be something that hasn't been masticated to death repeatedly already.
--Jonah
------------------ "It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
[This message has been edited by Peregrinus (edited February 24, 2001).]
posted
As we're going over this stuff again anyway, I may as well restate my solution: TWO MELBOURNES. One, the Nebula-class ship that the writers intended to be offered to Riker, which we sorta see in BOBWII. The other, the Excelsior-class ship seen in "Emissary", retired some time prior to the episode (supposedly to be replaced by the Nebula-Melbourne) and hauled out of mothballs to fight at Wolf 359.
Assumption: In the non-canon novelization of the episode (allegedly based on the script - anyone have that, BTW?) the Excelsior-Melbourne is said to be making a "suicide run" on the cube, and was destroyed before it could get there.
Fact: the Excelsior-Melbourne didn't fire a single shot when seen onscreen (we only see the Saratoga, Bellerophon and Yamaguchi fire phasers) and was closer to the cube than any other ship when it was destroyed.
Theory: the Excelsior-Melbourne was an unmanned ship brought out of mothbals and set to ram the Cube. Hence, why it didn't fire back, and perhaps why the cube didn't encounter any shield resistance when it fired on her.
Supposition: The Nebula-Melbourne Riker was offered was in the Wolf 359 fleet, and was destroyed after the earlier Melbourne.
Conclusion: Two Melbournes. One retired and reactivated to act as a big unmanned ram, which didn't work. The other one, possibly with Riker's XO-to-be in command, fought and was destroyed later.
That's my idea. Rip apart at your leisure.
Mark
------------------ "Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
[This message has been edited by Mark Nguyen (edited February 24, 2001).]
(You can never be too careful with some people around here (ds), they may take your mistake as fact.
------------------ "This is such an amazingly minor complaint. Does anyone actually watch episodes anymore, or is it just a notebook + pause button exercise these days?" -Sol System on what constitutes modern day Star Trek watching, 02-22-01
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited February 24, 2001).]
posted
Perhaps the Excelsior Melbourne fired weapons while we weren't looking. Hell maybe Saratoga fired torpedos while we weren't looking. (And the launcher(s) could have been relocated during a (design) refit.)
------------------ [Bart's looking for his dog.] Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church. Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church. Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!
posted
Here's my theory: After slaughtering the 'Fleet armada, the Borg chopped up the burning hulk of the Excelsior-class Melborne, and welded the name plate onto a Neblua. Why? Just to mess with the heads of silly people like the lot of you.
Have a nice day!
------------------ Disclaimer: "All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities." - `OverTheEdge'
------------------ Lisa: "Don't you remember the story of Oedipus?" Homer: "Maybe five dollars will refresh my memory." Lisa (angrily): "Oedipus was the story of a man who kills his father and marries his mother!" Homer: "Uggh! Who pays for that wedding?"
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