posted
I don't suppose one wishes to invoke time travel to try and solve all these problems?
Seriously, what if, say, instead of trying to get away by slingshotting around Jupiter, they slingshot around the SUN? Huh? Might get that little time warp thing going, and end up back in 1996? Thus the Botany Bay left Earth in 1996, and Kahn's men swore to live and die by his command 200 years before Terrel was born. Convoluted, but it works. I think.
------------------ Disclaimer: "All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities." - `OverTheEdge'
posted
'Sigh' Dogma. For fifty years, a single thought held control of Mayalogists. They believed the writings were mystical incantations. Why did they believe so? One man told them so. Dogma. Just because one episode says the events of the Eugenics War occured in the 1990's doesn't make this correct. There needs to be an attempt to make connections of the facts in the original series with each other and with the facts of the later shows. I made that attempt. However, dogma rules. Please forget that I brought the topic up. Let's go to other topics. Thank you.
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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
[This message has been edited by targetemployee (edited March 02, 2001).]
posted
My friend, please, breathe. Deep, deep, lungfulls of air. Feel the oxygen. Yes, that's it.
Now, it's a show. Remember that. Remember that above all else. And remember that we're all friends here, and that disagreement does not mean...I don't know, anti-targetism.
Timeline A: Eugenics war is fought and engulfs the entire planet. Khan and his followers are enventually defeated and are exported to Australia where they are kept under in suspeneded animation. The botany bay is being sent up stage by stage for constuction (a bit like the International Space Station). The Government of Earth decides to put Khan and his Followers on this ship and elect to send him and his followers plunging into the Sun. Khan and his followers are put onto the ship but the mission is sabotaged instead of being sent into the sun was tied into an orbit and the ship continued to pick up speed as it's engines approached maximum speed. The ship had enough speed to leave the Sun's Orbit and blast it's way out of the Solar System (about Warp 1) after the ship left the solar system it's speed reduced to 10% of light speed and it was like this for 200 light years until the Enterprise found her.
Timeline B 1996 is like what it was. Voyager is drawn 73,000 light years and 377 years into the past. Eugenics War has yet to be fought.
CONCLUSION SPACE SEED:2265 TWOK:2285 VOY FUTURE END:2373 2265-200=2065 The eugenics war could have been an isolated battlefield, Khan was defeated in Asia (Where his Kingdom was.) The eugenics war in turn triggers events which cause WW III. When Khan is put on the spaceship, Europe votes against it and condems USA and the rest of the world for putting Khan on the ship. Europe then cuts off it's supplies to USA and Russia, These countries then launch an attack on Europe which is disastourous and the forces that attack Europe are obliterated and Europe launches counter Nuclear attack on USA and Russia which reduces the countries to wastegrounds. What remains of the counties fights back and fires nuclear missles at Australia,Asia and Canada who are allied with Europe. In response Europe fires at Africa,Central and South America who are allied with America and Europe is then directly attacked by Nuclear attack, The countries to fall first are: 1) Portugal 2) Spain 3) Poland Europe launches a counter attack at America and Russia which leaves only America in the War. America again launches direct Nuclear attack on Europe The countries to fall are 1)UK 2)Italy 3)Greece and the Balkans. 4)Austria, Hungary and Romainia and the Czech Republic Europe and America decide to launch an allout attack on each other, The fire missles at eachother at the same time which obliterates both Europe and America leaving only cvillian survivors who had hide in Nuclear bunkers-Among them a certain Zempfram Cochrane and Lily Sloane
posted
I somewhat doubt it was that violent. After all, the cities of Europe and North America seemed to survive through the war intact, with all the old buildings back to their original splendor in the 24th century. I admit that SOME buildings could simply have been reconstructed after the war (for example, the Eiffel tower of the 23rd and 24th centuries could be "Eiffel tower Mk II"), but it is unlikely that so many of the lesser buildings in, say, San Francisco or New Orleans or Paris or Cambridge would have been rebuilt so accurately. Technically, it might have been possible, but nobody should have bothered, since obviously there was no attempt to preserve a certain architectural image - the old buildings of at least Paris and Cambridge are accompanied by modern monsters in the 24th century.
Perhaps the nuclear exchange directly killed only those 34 million or so people mentioned in "Bread and Circuses", and the rest of the 600 million died of hunger, poverty and diseases following the collapse of the infrastructure in large areas of the globe. It might be for example that the big nuclear nations all launched their missiles at their worst enemies, but all of those enemies already had anti-missile defences and the attacks thus failed to damage any major targets. However, missiles directed at lesser targets did more damage. And perhaps, say, Washington DC or Moscow or Beijing (which we never see in Trek) was leveled when the government was gathering for an emergency meeting, thus creating chaos throughout the country even though a relatively low number of people died?
There are quite a few arguments I didn't consider so far. I also believe that Khan must have left Earth much later than 1996 for several reasons - provided there is only one Trek timeline, and I have the impression that WW III and the Eugenic Wars are the same.
As for the damage WW III has done, I was never fond of the idea of the "Post-Apocalyptic Horror" established in "Encounter at Farpoint". I think that if civilization was still reduced to barbarism in 2079 (the silly yet supposedly realistic scenery looked rather like "Mad Max" than Star Trek), it would have lasted much longer than a century until mankind, now united, would have been a worthy founding member of the Federation. Also, like Timo said, what about all these old buildings. The fact that we see ugly concrete-steel-glass architecture in Cambridge or Paris along with the old buildings is a definite sign of continuity. If everything had been lowered in WW III, there would be an all-modern or an all-historizing style.
------------------ "Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities." Ex Astris Scientia
posted
Before I retire to bed, I would like to discuss sequence of events. And to the side, our conversations are no more ridiculous than religious scholars debating the existence and nature of angels. They exist in the world of religion, a world that these scholars have great faith in. For many of us, Star Trek exists as a function of our reality. That is my take anyway.
For the purpose of this discussion, let's forget dates.
The original Star Trek established that about 150 to 200 hundred years ago humanity had developed interstellar travel. At the beginning of this technology and socialogical leap, the Eugenics War began and ended. This war was catastrophic, but didn't impede the advancement of humanity into the stars. The exact number of dead is not known. (In "Bread and Circuses", Spock lowered the numbers. The reason is thus-To preserve the Prime Directive, both Federation captains had lied about their origins. The Roman nation, being xenophobic and isolationist, had never traveled outside their boundaries and therefore couldn't validate the strangers claims. The claims were accepted at face value. So, the two Federation captains said that they came from a land across the ocean and that they had ships at the shore. And so when Spock said that 34 million had died, he was giving a projected number if the world wars had been fought on a smaller scale. This is consistent with all three world wars. I suppose this answers the question raised by the episode "Space Seed". Which world war is mentioned? The Third World War.)
In the next series, humanity had begun to explore space three hundred years before. Also, as in the first series, the exploration of the stars began after a terrible war. This is the Third World War.
The sequence of events matches. Just the dating doesn't.
In the next series, we are told that the Eugenics War occured two hundred years before. This would be long after the early phase of space exploration. And this contradicts information given in the last series that there was no war on Earth after 2113.
In the next series, we are shown briefly a DY-100 series ship with boosters. In the footage 'captured' by Voyager, we see no launches of the DY-100 series ship or news reports about the DY-100 series ship. Furthermore, there are no news reports about a Eugenics program. And furthermore, ships are not traveling at warp speeds in the time period of the model.
Based on all four sources of information, I would say that the first two were close to each other in the sequence of events. First, a terrible war. Second, warp drive was formulated, tested, and used by Earth ships. By the third series, this sequence had been altered. First, warp drive. Second, war. By the fourth series, the sequence is largely missing.
Speed: As I understand it, although a sector is 20 ly across, Sol System is not necessarily dead center of its 20 ly cube. Therefore The Botany Bay could have reached the next sector in less than 10 ly at a fraction of c in 200 years.
Spaceframe: Simply from looking at the vessel, one can tell that there is a central streamlined core (capable of being launched from Earth via conventional or nuclear rockets), as well as strap-on cargo or fuel pods surrounding the core.
Dating: I'm not a trivia freak regarding quotes, but was there any mention of "our records are incomplete (or fragmented)? Or am I misremembering another episode? If the records are not exact, there is further room for conjecture.
Writing: In multiple instances when trying to explain contradictions in the show, one must occassionally pare it down to 'bad writing'. In THIS case, the fans are free to come up with an IMPROVED CANON (so it would weem to me).
------------------ Faster than light - no left or right.
posted
As I see it there are just two dating problems: 1. Eugenices War is given as being in the 1990s and is referred to as the last global war on Earth. However this clashes with a WWIII in the 2050s. 2. Kirk and Kahn both place Kahn's time as 200 years in the past.
Moving the Eugenics War is a rather drastic action. I'd prefer something more subtle....
Some historians see the period 1914 (start of WWI) to 1989 (end of Cold War) as one long period of conflict. If 23rd and 24th century historians see the later 20th,m early 21st centuries in the same way then the Eugenics War and WWIII can be 60 years apart and still both be the last global war on Earth.
(Or think of the way that parts of WWII are known by different names: the Pacific War springs to mind. If the Eugenics War was just a name for one portion of a longer conflict then we reach the same result as above.)
Kanh's empire was in Asia. We've never visited Asia in a time travel story. It would be easy for the war to have started there in the 1990s and continued for years, moving out of the Eugenics War phase once the supermen were defeated. As the war drags on it has a negative influence on the world economy leading to the situation seen in that DS9 episode with the Bell Riots. Space exploration still continues, maybe some nations are looking for additional resources or somewhere safe to move an elite portion of their population. Somewhere in all this Colonel Green get's to perform his atrocity. Eventually things get desperate and someone starts throwing nukes around. This leads us to First Contact. Obviously the unification of Earth takes some time and it's still possible for some areas to be in a state of anarchy in 2079 (Encounter at Farpoint's post atomic horror).
Obviously there are a few dialogue references that don't fit the above. But the broad outline works.
As for my point 2. Kirk mistook the DY-100 for a DY-500, a later model, maybe he had the DY-500 date fixed in his mind. Or maybe Kirk is just bad with numbers. ;-) Kahn? He either beelieved Kirk and never found out the truth (unlikely, whats her face would have told him) or he was barking mad and couldn't count straight either. It's not really important.
The Botany Bay's speed could have been much higher if Kahn had installed some sort of high sub-light drive that only the genetic supermen knew about. When they left the secret was lost to Earth technology.
Detecting a small, drifting, sublight object in interstellar space would be very difficult. It's possible the the Botany Bay was only 10ly from Earth when discovered.
Personally I see no need to make major changes to the timeline or to give the Botany Bay an FTL drive.
posted
Actually one could say that we are in a Eugenics war of sorts and have been for a long time (at least 70 years).
In essence the genocides, ethnic cleansing, tribal battles, etc. are all attempts to control whose genes get to continue.
Also there is a growing belief that we are creating two classes of people - developed world folks and third world folks. With better nutrition the "developed" world people tend to be healthier (and perhaps even taller), also have access to better education and technology. (I don't see third world members on this BBS)
Given the perspective of 400 years they may describe the entire 20th and 21st centuries as a long series of wars, and the people that live during them as savages.
posted
I think Picard made reference that World War II lasted the "later half of the twenty-fourth century" ... I could be wrong.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 **** "The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families." --Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
posted
I don't see why it's so hard to believe that the Eugenics War could happen in 1996, regardless of what Voyager showed.
I mean, who said the war even took place in North America? It's possible, in the Trek timeline, the US doesn't get involved in foreign affairs, or even if it did, all the fighting was in Asia, Africa, and Western Europe. I mean, World War II didn't take place in North or South America except for Pearl Harbor, and yet America was still full in the war effort. The same could be done for the Eugenics War.
------------------ "No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"
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