posted
I much prefer designation battlecruiser over battleship, but than again I like the idea of almost everything being a cruiser of some kind or another.
posted
"gunship/battlecruiser/aircraft carrier"? He contradicts himself three times right there. Those things aren't suppose to be all thrown into a blender and mixed like that.
Hey, Miranda and Excelsiors are the true work horses of the Federation. Don't mock them! Sure they explode quite often, but we see a lot of other newer ships go up in flame, too. Only reason we don't see more of that is because they don't show as many of the newer classes. Besides, it's not like they follow a single Miranda or Excelsior around, showing every moment it's in combat. They just show you a few seconds before, during, and after they blow up. You don't know exactly how much punishment they have taken already.
------------------ "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
posted
Actually a battlecruiser by definition is a ship wth cruiser armor with battleship guns. The battlecruiser has no armor to make the ship faster. Generally a battlecruiser almost or over a battleship's tonnage. The naval battlecruiser was thought of as a cruiser-killer and whatever it can't defeat, it would be faster to run away. However fleet commanders thought them as almost battleships and when fighting against a true battleship they were no match. The last battlecruiser was the HMS Hood, and she like the well known battle she was sunk by a true battleship.
No armor but heavy guns sounds like your typical Trek ship. But I'm a battleship person when I have a choice betwen a battlecruiser or a slow battleship, I'll take a battleship any day unless you have a more powerful battleship than me.
Those three designations are seperate, they are meant to be seperate its either one or the other not all. For the Akira I'll go for: Heavily Armed Torpedo Cruiser.
------------------ The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
posted
I have always love the glory days of the BB as well, but give me a fast efficient battlecruiser, and I would gladly run like hell if I got out matched. I realize that it didn't work for the hood, and that the AD Graf Spee, Lutow, and the AD Scheer were less than out right winners by design or tactics, but I still like the idea especially in universe of trek.
Lutzow had bad luck. Graf Spee was caught but had a good run. The Scheer had quite a lucky run and survived the war. Let's not forget that the battlecruisers Schwarnhorst and Gneisnau wre probably the most successful of their type given the damage they caused to the British, including ambushing a carrier.
Until the advent of patrols, battlecruisers were quite effective in deep enemy territory operations. But eventually though, it turns out that submarines could accomplish the same job for a lower cost.
I would speculate that if Star Trek wars are fought in more practical and realistic assumptions, the brunt of the battles would be carried by massed formation of ships from the 100m to 350m class. Based on the game Dominion Wars, it would be termed as Class 1 and Class 2 ships. In the English language, that would be your Escort, Frigate, Scout, and Destroyer classes, covering the gamut of ships from the Bird of Prey, the Defiant, the Sabre to the Steamrunner, Norway and Intrepid classes. This would be most modern naval wars where the brunt of action were carried by destroyers and frigates including World War II.
There are value in the two extremes in a Trek environment---large super capital ships and massed formations of strike fighters from carriers, but it would be the smaller middle ships that would take the brunt of fighting and dying in a war.
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
There's something I wanna bring up.
Remember in the scene in FC there is an Akira on the top right hand corner and: - fires 5 torpedoes from just above the deflector, - fires these torpedoes in RAPID FIRE MODE.
Assuming that these are indeed single fire torpedo launchers, and suppose there are, say 5 torpedo launchers just above the deflector dish, this COULD explain the rapid firing from this Akira.
The Akira is a great looking ship from the outside. That thing was a beaut first time I saw it.
------------------ "Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care" - The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight
posted
No, they come from the same source. Putting five single fire launchers together is like reverting to old sailship cannons. There must be ways of building revolving magazines or something to make deployment faster.
Timo: Your criteria for battleship status is a bit high, I think. Firstly, battlecruisers have even been known to be as small as the old K'Tingas. If the range of battlecruiser sizes can vary so, why couldn't that of battleships? If I may compare with WWII battleships, the italian Vittorio class and the US South Dakota class were both much smaller and lighter ships than the Iowa class or Yamato class, but they were all battleships.
And the considerable size/mass difference between the Vor'Cha and the Negh'Var is IMO well enough to grant the Negh battleship status. It's also a very slow ship, indicating that they rather rely on shielding, armor and strong weapons than impulse engines.
Despite the fact that the mirror Defiant had stronger phasers than any contemporary ship that ever took on the emperor's flagship, other ships of the same size has fared worse, for instance the romulan D'Deridex. One of those got whammed pretty good when strafing the cardassian sentry gun network. It didn't look at all harmed just prior to the final volleys that made it lose stabilizers and start spinning out of control.
------------------ "Babies haven't any hair; old men's heads are just as bare; between the cradle and the grave lies a haircut and a shave."
posted
First of all, despite what you read in the books or watch on the TV, the Graf Spee and her sisters are no battleships. They are heavily armed cruisers. She was slower than cruisers, she had the armor of a cruiser and she had only 6 11" guns. A true battlecruiser would run away from its cruiser counterparts, also would have a larger armament.
Jemmie Battlecruiser: Battlecruiser (no duh) Jemmie Battleship: Battleship (no duh again)
For ships you don't go by size but the amount of armor and armament, plus speed. You can have a ship 80 miles long but have no weapons or armament, is that a battleship?
------------------ The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
posted
I realize the Deuchlands class ships probably can't be considered true battlecruiser, but for their periode they were definitely more than just a cruiser.
The Deutschland class wasn't as fast as a cruiser, but it was definitely better armored and better gunned than Allied cruisers which only had 8 inchers. German cannons tend to be ballistically superior over an equivalent Allied cannon.
There was one cruiser that actually outweighted and even outarmored the Deutschland class and that was the Prinz Eugen. But it was still classed as a heavy cruiser.
if we're comparing modern ships against Star Trek ship, then yes, there are very specific guide lines for different type of ships that are used by navies across the world today (battleship, battlecruiser).
For example, check the Washington treaty for the specific guidelines lay out for battleships.
------------------ What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend? - With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
posted
Graf Spee was a "pocket battleship," that is, a cruiser that just scraped under the restrictions of the Washington Treaty but was still very scary shit.
------------------ "And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking." -DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
posted
To modify Matrix's list a bit, I'd like to forget that the respective navies call their own ships and instead apply YAPIUSLBOWWTD (yet another personal interpretation of universal standard loosely based on WWII definitions).
Galaxy, Nebula: very heavy cruiser Sovereign, Ambassador, Akira, Excelsior etc: heavy cruiser Miranda and size-mates: destroyer
Negh'Var: very heavy cruiser or battlecruiser Vor'Cha: heavy cruiser K't'inga: destroyer Small BoB: corvette, PT boat
D'eridex: very heavy cruiser or "pocket battleship"
Galor: destroyer, or perhaps light cruiser
Jemmie attack ship: PT boat Jemmie warships: cruiser, heavy cruiser Jemmie battleship: battleship (the first ship in Trek with a big enough quantitative difference from the usual cruisers, if not a qualitative difference)
Borg ship: forget it, there's only so much one can do with WWII analogies. The closest thing would probably be mainland Japan.
Typical TOS adversary ship: cruiser (matches the heroes) Typical TNG adversary ship: destroyer (outgunned by heroes) Typical Voyager adversary ship: heavy cruiser (outguns heroes)
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"Loosely based on current day naval classifications" - that in itself is risky since we (apparently) don't even know how today's standards are derived, let alone fictional 24th century ones!
However, I suppose there is some 'universal' way of classification that never really changes over time: a ship is designated 'destroyer', 'cruiser', 'heavy cruiser' et all, based on a combination of factors (never just a single one) - armament, defensive abilities, speed, and whatnot. Obviously these designations differ per race/culture, which is why Galor-class ships were labelled 'destroyers' by Sisko/Starfleet in Sacrifice of Angels, while the Cardassians themselves considered them (battle-)cruisers.
In the 23rd century K'tinga's were called 'battlecruisers' because at the time, their configuration warranted such a description. But as starships 'got better', that designation became obsolete - they might now be referred to as 'destroyers' or even 'frigates'.
(Best example of this btw would be the Defiant - officially an 'escort' (whatever that might be), unofficially a warship (again, whatever that might be) with firepower that could fit the 'battleship' category, speed & maneuverability that would not be out of place in the 'destroyer' range...)
------------------ "Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
[This message has been edited by The_Evil_Lord (edited May 18, 2001).]
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