posted
It's still possible that the Vorta are being lied at - even about their origins, the story of which was revealed in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River".
In any case, there is no logic in saying the Dominion is as puny as the Federation. About half of DS9 was dedicated to showing us that a minuscule beachhead force of Dominion troops could dig in and then expand to threaten the whole Alpha quadrant. At early stages of the war, some 2800 ships were a major commitment to the Dominion - but towards the end, tens of thousands of ships could apparently be thrown into the fire. Clearly, the Dominion was going to win unless it could be uprooted from Cardassia.
It doesn't matter if the Alpha quadrant beachhead force originally represented 75% or 0.000000001% of Dominion total military forces in Gamma. It suffices to know that this beachhead force had the stated capacity to *expand*. So even if only 25% of the fleet was left to defend Gamma, it would evidently be trivially easy to multiply it by a factor of a couple of hundred to counter any invasion.
THAT is strength. Not mere starship numbers, but the ability to freely *alter* the numbers to fit the current strategic situation.
So IMHO, Dominion forces should not be compared against Starfleet in strength. It would simply embarrass everybody involved. It's much like comparing the offensive capabilities of a super soaker and a garden hose - the latter is never gonna run out of ammo, so it doesn't matter how much water it can pour out per minute, it will still get you wetter than the soaker.
When Starfleet gets to the level where the loss of a starship doesn't matter at all because it and its crew can be *instantly* replaced, then it can come and compare itself with the Dominion main fleet.
posted
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the Vorta date was true. I meant that the Vorta, or at least Weyoun, believe it to be, because he had no reason to lie to Odo about it.
posted
Timo, but another part about strength is actual starship strength. If the Dominion had thousands of ships that was equivilivant to a Starfleet shuttle then it wouldn't matter if the Dominion could multiply them by thousand times, Starfleet would would always have bbetter ships. The two come hand to hand, to compare two things you must look 3 dimensionaly. Fleet size, industrial strength, territory size, crew sizes, starships strength.
What made the Dominion so powerful was that they could reclone anybody while we humans have to do it the old fashioned way. I don't about the ships but I'm assuming that those ships are produced similar to the way we produce cars. In my own opinion the average Starfleet ship was equal or better than the Jemmi bug, that's why aside from the size of the Federation, the Dominion was more concerned with the Starfleet fkeet than the Klingon, Romulan or even the Cardassian fleet.
To make a good guess on the size of Starfleet we must take a look at the size of the Federation first. Then we must take a look at the placement of ships that would be in the Federation territory. We also must take alot at the placement of Starbases based inside the Federation territory. We can't just make wild guesses but educated guesses based on info and common sense. Right now I'm calculating the size of the Federation and and the availablity of ships when ever there was crisis in Star Trek.
------------------ The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!
posted
Idiots? How were the Vorta idiots? OK, so they ordered a few suicide runs on the Klingon ships that were attacking the Chintoka system, but I can't think of any other occasions . . .
On a personal note - I've never considered such facts about fleets before and well . . . I'm finding them really useful - for my novel, cheers!. Which by the way, will probably never get published . Still, it's a cool way to pass the time when you are bored and have an over-active mind that can only think on space and starships and aliens!
How do you people find the time to think about such things in SUCH depth? I am truely amazed at your talents. Most days I barely have the strength and energy to get out of bed! Hehe!
posted
I realize that for the most part the dominion ships were shown to be perfect warships, but is it possible that this was the very thing that made them unsuited for winning against the allies. For example, the perceived combat weakness of the Fed could have been more than made up with by its efficiency in being able to go from point A to point B very fast. Lets say a pair of excelsior jump into a system, raise a little hell, and jump out, so Dominion dispatches a flight of say six fighter to deal them, but because the Excelsior can take a beating and run farther as fast as the fighter, the Excelsiors win. Now lets say that we multiply this a few hundred times, and the Dominion not lacking fire power starts really missing their toilet paper.
I guess I am stating the obvious, and I realize this is a fleet size thread, but I am just trying justify a numerically inferior SF. ------------------ Access Password 47at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html
[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]
posted
Hey, why wouldn't they be as fast or faster? Has it been shown that a capital ship like the Excelsiors couldn't retire effectively against Jem Fighters? We all know that two could probably take one Excel in hand to hand, but has it been proven that Jem Fighters were faster than even the slowest Fed capital ship. My suggestion was not to imply that Jem Fighters were slow, but to imply that they have the bite but maybe not the wind to chase down a ship like an Excelsior.
posted
Is it possible that the only reason that premptive strikes didn't work in the begining was because the founders new the exact time that captain was in the head?
posted
well we have the time martok took his squadren of BOP for a raid against dominion holdups.
martock took his BOP instead of cruisers cuase he knew none of them were fast enough for this operation...
then we see those BOP quickly being outrunned by jem bugs or fighters sure we don't know what angle they intercepted from---but even the quick bird of preys couldn't outrun them and since excels and bird of preys fit in the same time era and excels are in the relatively slow cruiser family...i just assumed
[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 16, 2001).]
posted
Did Martock actually say that his cruiser weren�t fast enough, or was it a maneuverability issue?
I can�t prove by any means the Excelsior or any Fed ship for that matter is faster than the Jem fighter, but I can�t still put forth an idea of how a fleet of inferior numbers and firepower could possibly vanquish a foe that didn�t appear to have any weaknesses.
posted
I've actually never thought about why he always chose a BoP. It does make sense, in such a volatile battle environment as against the Dominion, one needs to stay on his feet. A Vor'Cha would be quite doomed.
About the size of the Dominion, I wouldn't stop at an estimate of 20,000 ships. Remember that this is a dictatorship, vessels need to be able to reach and patrol any given point in pretty much the whole gamma quad, at least before the war. Well, perhaps even the more after the war, the news of the dominion defeat probably had all the border worlds partying like it was 2399.
So, I'm thinking the dominion fleet could land at about 50-60,000 ships. The main reason they didn't throw in as much as they could through the 'hole may be that there's a certain limit to how much they can drain their ship resources without risking their own back yard.
------------------ "Babies haven't any hair; old men's heads are just as bare; between the cradle and the grave lies a haircut and a shave."
. Still, it's a cool way to pass the time when you are bored and have an over-active mind that can only think on space and starships and aliens!
Most days I barely have the strength and energy to get out of bed! Hehe!
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