posted
Maybe someone more nit-picky than myself can solve this.
I know that we all assume that the USS Horizon (and other pre-TOS starships) were Daedalus-class. What is the canon source? And what is the canon source which states that said Daedalus-class is the well-known spherical-primary-hull, cylindrical-engineering-hull model we assume it was?
Do we have a CANON source which categorically states that the pre-TOS starships didn't look like the NX-01?
-------------------- 'One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.' - Lazarus Long
quote:I know that we all assume that the USS Horizon (and other pre-TOS starships) were Daedalus-class. What is the canon source?
It's canon that the Essex NCC-173 is a Daedalus-class vessel. The rest is an assumption of the ST Encyclopedia.
quote:And what is the canon source which states that said Daedalus-class is the well-known spherical-primary-hull, cylindrical-engineering-hull model we assume it was?
No canon source here too. Just the Horizon's registry NCC-176 is so close to the Daedalus-class vessel Essex NCC-173.
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Sisko's model in his office was the Daedalus class USS Horizon, so that assures us that she is a Daedalus...
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Why do you know that the Horizon is a Daedalus-class vessel?
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Going by just the show, the Essex is Daedalus-class, and the Horizon is the ship with the spherical structure, but that's about it.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
I think what's going on here is that NO, the Horizon was never referred to in dialogue as Daedalus class, YES the Essex was, and YES, the assumption is that the Horizon (& the Archon) were of that class because of the closeness of the registry #'s to the Essex, and the sensible pre-design.
What clinches this argument is that these assumptions are logical and make sense. Going by what info Okuda had (the registries, the names, the desktop model, etc.), everybody, including me, seemed to be happy and willing to accept what the Encyclopedia conjectured, until just recently. Now "Enterprise" may change all that, for better or worse.
Treknophyle: Yes, you are correct in assuming that perhaps with all this new "revisionist history" apparently going on with Enterprise, the Daedalus class and other 22nd century classes may end up looking very similar to the NX-01. You can even explain away the Horizon model by saying it couldn't be seen all that well, so that's not the design we're gonna use (remember the two Melbournes?). As I said before, I'm even starting to like the design a little more than before. However, I think the issue here is the conflict of interest as I explained above.
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
USS Essex, a Daedalus-class vessel, crashed on a moon of Mab-Bu VI in 2167. I'm not sure if the registry NCC-173 is canon or not.
USS Horizon, NCC-176, sphere-and-cylinders-class, visited Sigma Iotia II about a century before TOS.
So, we know the Daedalus class was in service during the first few years of the Federation's existence (and, in fact, until 2196). We also know the sphere-and-cylinders class was in service during the first few years of the Federation's existence.
posted
If you want to split hairs, though, the Horizon model was sitting next to a prototype warpship model that had some fairly significant differences to Cochrane's ship... I don't think anybody howled when the Phoenix looked a bit different in FC, though. When taken with the funny-looking Nebula and the never-built Space Station Freedom, perhaps we can assume Sisko's local model shop sold defective merchandise
Other "evil apologist" solutions:
The Horizon model was of a later USS Horizon to the Sigma Iota one. Does it even have the registry written on it?
Considering how infitismally small the writing is on the stand and we never got remotely close enough to ever see it, we can treat it like the fine print on a registry plaque or the Ent-D's infinite improbability drive and ignore it.
One thing everybody fails to consider is that Jeffries designed what would become known as the Daedelus as a 23rd century Starship Enterprise, and that the Constitution design he came up with afterwards was never intended to be 100 years older than it. Hence the very similar styling cues. Putting the Daedelus design back 100 years was, in hindsight of course, a somewhat silly decision by Okuda.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
posted
What about the USS Carolina from "Friday's Child?" It was a Daedalus calss ship, says the Encyclopedia, with a registry of either NCC-235 or NCC-160. Would this be considered a fake ship, because the Klingons used it in a false distress call, or a real one? (On another note, I would say the sphere hull design is canon and official, since it has been said to be Daedalus in so many places.)
The ships Archon, Carolina, and Horizon were mentioned breifly in episodes of TOS. ("Return of the Archons," "Friday's Child," and "A Piece of the Action," to be specific.)
The U.S.S. Essex, a Daedalus-class ship, was mentioned in "Power Play" (TNG).
That's where the names come from.
All of these ships were later featured in Okudagram displays in TNG and elsewhere which assigned them all to the Daedalus-class, and gave the registry numbers of NCC-189, NCC-160, NCC-176, and NCC-173.
That's where the class and registry info comes from.
A Greg Jein-built (I think) model of the U.S.S. Horizon NCC-176, built originally as a conjectural model for the Star Trek Chronology, was seen in various episodes of DS9 as set decoration in Sisko's office. A very clear picture of this model, with all its markings visible, is shown in the book "The Art of Star Trek."
That's where the design came from.
All of this was later featured in Encyclopedias 1, 2, and 2.5.
NOTE: The Carolina can easily be explained by the fact that it was a hoax by Klingons. No conflict.
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
quote:All of these ships were later featured in Okudagram displays in TNG and elsewhere which assigned them all to the Daedalus-class
In which episodes are these displays? I want to see them.
[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
I think making the Carolina a Daedalus is just an Encyclopedia thing. If the Carolina were really a Daedalus, it would have been out of service for at least seventy years by the time the Klingons used it in their ruse, and no-one would have believed them.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Not necessarily, TSN, since I doubt ANYONE in Starfleet could really remember all 1700+ ships names that Starfleet has had at that time. The Klingons may have known the name of the Carolina because maybe they destroyed her or briefly encountered her somewhere.
-------------------- "Lotta people go through life doing things badly. Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting."
-Steve McQueen as Michael Delaney, LeMans
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Spikey: Okuda has stated that all his starship information in the Encycs comes from Okudagrams that he himself put together for displays in the background of various episodes of various series. We don't know exactly which ones, and he can't remember exactly either. It's just one of the many things we sort of have to trust him on because he's an inside guy. (I know a lot of you think I trust him a bit too much, but I think that at least this is something we can ALL take his word for, comfortably.)
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I think you're misrepresenting Okuda a bit there. While he's said some registries are from displays, by no means has he said that all of them are, especially the TOS ones.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Printer-friendly view of this topic
