I have been holed up for the last three-four weeks engrossed in this work. You have done (are doing?) a fantastic job. We're experiencing 90+ degree weather here in Tokyo and I'm simply sitting by the pool working on the master timeline!
I still haven't gotten into part 2 yet, but I wanted you to know that this detail is incredible. I feel that the Decipher starship thread mentions just didn't do it enough justice. I recognize a lot of other previous histories thrown in (including FASA's) and I'm hoping to incorporate it (somehow) into Masao's timeline.
Is there a chance you'll be able to notify us when you add/flesh out new classes?
Is this a web page or something?
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Yup, the "Way of the Warrior" chapter originally supported a SFC-style story of an encounter between Klingon and human ships and a group of refugees, escalating the Klingon/UFP hostilities. Now ENT has done that one... I intend to revamp everything to support a 2151 first contact yet a 2200s-2210s breakdown in relations, but it would be impossible to accommodate all ENT facts without discarding just about everything from chapters "Romulan War" and "Federation". Even the existence of the phase cannon wreaks havoc on those chapters.
Timo Saloniemi
While ENT has done this, I urge you to go with your ENT-free script. After ENT has completed its series run, then you can decide if you want to make that series canon to your history.
You've done a great job so far, and I'm anxious to read about the hostilities that take place as you see them.
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Just added the file shiptext2.zip, which is an update containing some mass figures and corrected attributions. Unfortunately, Flareupload won't accept overwrites, so this could get real ugly pretty soon - I don't want to send shiptext47.zip just to add a single new ship entry to shiptext46.zip...
What's the simplest way to get older versions deleted? Does only Charles have the rights?
I'm doing the masses by claiming that pre-24th century ship masses were traditionally given without including warp coil mass. It's pretty easy to do this to SotSF or FASA ships, since their given (hull) masses usually roughly correspond to the volumetrics - but it may look a bit odd that a Derf, which is basically a two-nacelled Larson, actually masses twice as much as the single-nacelled version! SFC ships require more work, as I cannot accept that a Baton Rouge hull would have half the mass of the smaller Constitution hull - so generally, I often add the first digit the original author "forgot to type", turning 90,000 tons to 190,000.
Still, there are some ships for which I don't have even the noncanon hull masses. Does anybody know how much a Detroyat weighs? Or a Caracal? Or a Durance? If not, I'd love to get volumetric estimates assuming the density you get for a nacelle-less Constitution that masses 171,000 tons. (Perhaps this density should decrease by 10% for every passing century, due to materials tech advances?)
Also, anybody have any data on the Almeida cruiser/transport? The original blueprints, copies of them, notes of them? What the heck did this ship look like?
Finally, I'm all for guest entries - if there's a ship you wish to add, especially in the TNG genre, I'll shamelessly plug it in and include a really really tiny note of the source in the entry.
posted
Oh, good!! You can have my Polaris/Constant class (Constitution varient from the DS9TM)article, once I've finished updating and expanding it. Which may take some time...
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Does anybody know how much a Detroyat weighs? Or a Caracal? Or a Durance?
Detroyat - 180,000mt (from what Dixon calls the "Avenger Class Evolution Sheet", single sheet, (c) 1983 Starstation Aurora, no title on sheet, mina didn't come in a packet)
Durance - 12,100mt (from "Cargo/Tug USS Durance Class", five sheets, (c)1980 Starstation Aurora.)
Do you have dimensions for the above?
Can't help with the Caracal.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
On the subject of masses I've been using the rough formula of multiplying FASA and SotSF masses by 4.5 to get 'proper' masses. This puts the SotSF Avenger and the DS9TM Miranda close together and puts the Constitution within "Scotty numbers" of the million ton(ne)s quoted in TOS.
I haven't tried applying this much outside the commoner classes.
Generally FASA masses should be taken with a pinch of salt. Mass was a primary factor in the game's ship construction system and so is a game number rather than a real world number. I assume that it's a 'tonnage equivalance figure' used in some computer simulation system. Same way that all FASA ships only have weapons with two dimensional firing arcs.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Wraith: Great! That's exactly what I'm looking for - a ship that definitely is part of the Trek universe, yet hasn't received canonical attention.
IC: Thanks for the data! Detroyat at Constitution-like 180,000 tons sounds relatively reasonable, even if there is no secondary hull; the "keel" is thick and heavy-looking enough, as are the pylons. I've used the following dimensions, assuming the saucer is a classic Constitution model (for easy conversion of USS Resolution to a Surya prototype): 213.7 m length, 151.8 m beam, 50.6 m height (counting a high-profile bridge dome like the "The Cage" Constitution bridge - I think the ship as usually portrayed is just missing her bridge module).
The PB-25 nacelles in my little universe are "spool-coil" units, lighter than the later "solid-state" ones (Jerry Oltion has something like that in his Captain's Table book, too). I chose to have them at 100,000 tons apiece as opposed to the 250,000 ton PB-31. Hence, the Detroyat is now at 380,000 tons total mass... With more modern engines, she'd be about twice as heavy, much like a Miranda.
Durance I sized using window rows, arriving at something like 73 m length, 38 m beam, 25,2 m height. The mass appears a little low for such a bulky-looking ship. I haven't decided on nacelle mass yet.
Using a cleaned-up Caracal side profile and assuming nacelles roughly of Constitution size, I took the ship to be 140.2 by 70.1 by 39.9 m. I also "rounded all the edges" so that the forward profile is ovoid, not rectangular... Spool-coil engines give roughly 250,000 ton total mass, as I try to keep the ship no heavier than the 50,000 ton hull mass (sans nacelles) of the Mann class. The masses of ships increase relatively steadily in this scenario, and the Detroyat is exceptionally heavy for a destroyer of its time, as the source text suggests.
I'm currently so enamored with the nacelles-dictate-mass idea that I find the 4.5 times multiplication impractical. It would mean exceptionally dense materials in hull construction, for one thing. And when I run into discrepancies in total mass, it's much easier to say "these nacelles have more coils inside than the others" than "this hull is much denser than the others"...
posted
Detroyat is 258.7 x 180 x 54.9m and most certainly does not have a standard connie saucer.
Durance is 98.72 x 57.46 x 27.91
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Wraith: Great! That's exactly what I'm looking for - a ship that definitely is part of the Trek universe, yet hasn't received canonical attention. Timo Saloniemi
Would that include some of the less than brilliant members of the Frankenstein fleet? If it's conjectural designs for cannon ships you want, then I'm sure the ASDB's fleet can be put at your disposal.
posted
Thanks for the ego-boosting again. I'll alter the Durance dimensions accordingly, but I still wonder about the Detroyat. I cannot take the drawing as completely accurate no matter what, given the sketchy nacelles and all. And the ship is contemporary to all those perfectly Constitution-like Ptolemies, Saladins, whatever, plus is supposed to have directly spawned the Surya. Since the only thing that even theoretically could be carried over in such a refit is the saucer, I'll probably still continue to see Constitution-like curves to it...
Reverend, I'll try to include all of the Frankenstein stuff. Even the little tug, since it looks a lot like one Sternbach SFC design... The Curry and the Raging Queen are already there, under Mediterranean class. The Centaur is a Renaissance. The Elkins is still seeking a class name, but as you see, I try to use these and other almost-on-screen ships instead of conjectural designs for the "unseen" classes if I possibly can. If I run out of existing designs, then I'll be happy to steal from the ASDB - but not a single piece of onscreen plastic before.
I'll also try and erase those ship classes that I created out of thin air to fill gaps in Fleet strength (Boxer, Trent, Antilles) if I can get ships from other sources to fill those slots - but again, I'll take study models, RPG ships and the like before purely conjectural designs.
I've finished cleaning up the early SFC-based classes, correcting some clear errors (like fusion-powered Companion class). I'm still sort of looking for a nice name for the post-WWIII Earth supergovernment - I think the New United Nations should disappear in the war, even though I used that name originally. And I'll try to work the ENT history (or pre-ENT history as given in ENT) into it all, even if I end up not using NX-01 and her adventures.
capped
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posted
Detroyat is pictured in great detail on the Avenger development chart.. the nacelles are bulkier old versions of the regular nacelles, but they share a common diameter.. the caps are simply bulkier, making them longer
and the saucer isnt a connie standard, but is more similar to the dimensions of the movie saucer (flatter, wider).. this is why the SotSF Detroyat that was refit to an Avenger caused a design variation, its one that is wider and rounder at the back section, they said a few others follow that modification, the Wright-Corder modification
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Timo: glad it can be of use; I will probably have a new version up on Flare within a couple of weeks and a version for you shortly after (I've got quite a bit of the historical titbits in ship lists at the moment- I will integrate these in to the main text) for the HHG and also try and ensure that it fits in with the dhips you've already done.).
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Hookay... I'll change the Detroyat dimensions.
But the Wright-Corder version wasn't explained as a result of USS Resolution re-refit - it was just something done differently to a couple of standard Suryas for the sheer sake of being different (ITRW, it was an excuse for Guenther to include some early fan blueprints that didn't look completely correct...).
The Resolution supposedly ended up looking more or less like a standard Surya, according to SotSF anyway. But if the saucer wasn't of Connie standard, then I'll probably go and say that she became an ugly almost-Surya instead. This isn't exactly disproved in SotSF, although not supported, either.
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