posted
Having seen a lot more DS9 recently, I picked up on a number of data points about some small ships of our acquaintance. Given the recent comments in the "Questions" thread, I decided to take a look.
I've come to a conclusion I don't like, but which I can't see a way out of. I'll try to explain, but I seem to be completely missing all of my screenshots from "Pre-emptive Strike"[TNG7] . . . presumably from the last drive crash, but I don't know.
1. There are four known Maquis ship types.
a. The big raiders: Chakotay's vessel was one of these. His ship is listed as the Liberty in Pathways, and it is identified as an Antares Class ship. "Repression"[VOY7] shows the Bajoran mind-control weirdo's screen with the ship designation "Val Jean", type "Maquis Raider". Eddington also used this type. "Ju'Day" has been claimed as a class name and "Zola" a ship name, but neither of those have canonical backing.
b. The small raiders: Ro flew one of these in "...Strike", and several took part in the attack on Gul Evek's Galor. They are distinguished from the big raiders by a few surface details and a heavily altered forward dorsal, one which features a cockpit instead of the wide bay of windows on the big raider.
c. The Federation fighters: Seen in use in "Strike", "The Maquis"[DS9-2] (both parts), and so on. And, of course, later DS9 showed this to be a Federation fighter.
d. Winged Bajoran: Seen in "Strike", and as a Bajoran vessel in DS9.
2. We thus know that there's a Bajoran ship type which we can discount for our purposes. We thus have three classes, one of which is named. The two smaller versions are not.
3. In "Heart of Stone"[DS9-3], Odo and Kira believe they are chasing a Maquis vessel after a Lissepian ship reports an attack. The dialogue runs as follows:
Kira: "They've just been attacked by a Maquis interceptor." Odo: "Long range sensors are detecting a modified Peregrine Class courier ship. Lightly armed, one man crew, bearing 268 mark 301." Kira: "The Maquis use Peregrine Class courier ships." Later: Kira: "I don't know what the Maquis have done to that ship's engines, but it's *fast*." Odo: "Not fast enough . . . we're closing on him." Kira: "We better catch him soon, we're entering the Badlands." ... later . . . Kira: "He's gotta be somewhere in this solar system." Odo: "There he is. Looks like he's trying to land on one of the moons orbiting that gas giant."
4. Therefore, we theoretically have a name for one of the two smaller classes, as well as a description. One of the two smaller classes of Maquis vessel, either the Federation fighter or the Maquis mini-Raider, is known as a Peregrine.
Most assume that the name Peregrine must refer to the fighter, since the Peregrine Falcon is a type of bird renowned for its hunting skills (generally eating other birds that it dives upon and stabs with its talons). However, the Latin term perigrinus simply means traveller or wanderer. The species name falco peregrinus refers to its wandering habits, including very long migratory treks and the habit of spreading out moreso than other falcons such as the common kestrel or small merlin.
Despite the common assumption, we see that the Peregrine is a courier in the canon. Since a courier, by definition, has to carry something, that limits the type of ship it could be. Given the tiny, cramped cockpit of the Federation fighters employed by Cal Hudson in "The Maquis, Pt. II" (which appeared to have barely more room than an MG, and certainly no more than a Triumph Spitfire), along with the external details indicating that there would be very little room behind the cockpit, it seems improbable that a ship of that type would qualify.
However, we have seen that the mini-Raider has a far more spacious cabin, akin to a large shuttlecraft. ("Strike")
5. Intriguing dialogue appears in "The Maquis, Pt. I":
Sisko: "I'm picking up another ship moving toward them." Dukat: "That's a Federation signature I believe, Commander." Sisko: "It sure isn't from Starfleet. I've never seen a ship configuration like that before. It almost seems like someone has modified an old support courier. Hailing them . . . no response. They've fired torpedoes! What kind of civilian vessel that size would be carrying a photon?"
Though, again, we do not see the ship itself, we learn a great deal about it. It is a Federation vessel of a design that Sisko, formerly of Utopia Planitia, has not seen. He either surmises it is a civilian ship because of its non-Starfleet design, or concludes that based on its resemblance to a certain type of old support courier.
It seems quite unlikely that Sisko would be unfamiliar with a standard type of Federation fighter, or that the Federation would start using a Maquis design during the Dominion War.
Thus, we have additional evidence that the mini-Raider is the Peregrine, and not the Federation Tac-Fighter.
6. Counterindications:
The vessel which fired torpedoes in the first part of "Maquis" is, according to this theory, one of the mini-Raiders. During the rest of the two-parter, though, we learn that Quark helps to arrange the sale of vessel weapons and other parts to the Maquis.
From Quark's contacts, they get, per Quark, "deflector shields, navigational arrays, maybe a couple hundred photon torpedoes [ . . . ] and pulse cannons, and some high-energy disruptors." Odo later gives a more detailed list, saying that they received "six ship-mounted high energy disruptors, three particle accelerators, two hundred photon torpedoes, and a dozen pulse cannons." Prior to the Bryma system battle, Odo reported the following: "According to Sakona (sp?) they only have two ships capable of mounting the weapons she purchased."
Since the Maquis vessels were of the Tac-Fighter type, we might conclude from this that the torpedo-firing Maquis ship from Part One was also of the Tac-Fighter type, due to the "capability" issue. After all, the Tac-Fighters did not apparently carry armaments besides phasers and photon torpedoes.
However, Sisko's statements about the ship being non-Starfleet, old, and unrecognizable seem incompatible with that idea. Further, since the Tac-Fighters did not apparently carry much of what she purchased, the whole "capability" argument seems quite circumstantial and flimsy.
7. Thus, I am forced to conclude that there are four known vessel types operated by the Maquis:
a. The big raiders: Antares Class b. The small raiders: Peregrine Class c. The Federation fighters: Class unknown, but "Tac-Fighter" is a useful appellation. d. Winged Bajoran: Seen in "Strike", and as a Bajoran vessel in DS9.
Thoughts? Screenshots? Fire away.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
Hmmm....while I love "Perigrine" to describe the fed fighter, your idea could work.
I was thinking on the Fed fighter's origins just a while ago (as I'm prone to do when dealing with the mentally ill at work) nad I think the fighters were something from either the Cardassian or Tzenkethi Wars nad were downgraded/reclassified to "courier" status (as the Fed is loathe to use war nameing conventions). The Maquis aquired several of these older fighters nad upgraded them to TNG levels of engines and weapons (thus the signature nad configuration not matching). The "starfleet fighter" really looks older than TNG's level of tech too: when compared to the Runabout, there's no transporter emitters, phaser strips....nothing.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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"Since the Maquis vessels were of the Tac-Fighter type, we might conclude from this that the torpedo-firing Maquis ship from Part One was also of the Tac-Fighter type, due to the 'capability' issue. After all, the Tac-Fighters did not apparently carry armaments besides phasers and photon torpedoes."
I don't kow if you can assume that the two ships capable of mounting the weapons were the Fed fighters. I suspect that that line did not refer to the photorps, since you don't really "mount" those. You'd use them in ships that already have torp launchers. So I think they had only two ships capable of mounting the disruptors, particle accelerators (that's a weapon?), and cannons.
"I was thinking on the Fed fighter's origins just a while ago (as I'm prone to do when dealing with the mentally ill at work) nad I think the fighters were something from either the Cardassian or Tzenkethi Wars nad were downgraded/reclassified to 'courier' status (as the Fed is loathe to use war nameing conventions)."
That's possible, except... what would they be couri-ing? I have to agree with G2k that, if any of the know ships is a Peregrine, it would have to be the smaller raider. Chakotay's ship was too large to have a one-person crew, and the fighters are too small to be "couriers".
Of course, that still doesn't mean we've definitely ever seen a Peregrine.
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posted
About section 6, the Counter-indications: from what you say, it seems that the fighters you do actually see are of the SF Tac-Fighter type, correct? And they don't seem to have many of the heavy weapons purchased by Sakonna (I checked the spelling), just standard phasers and torps. Isn't that then proof that the other fighter, as mentioned in section 5 and unknown to Sisko, is of the mini-Maquis type?
The question then becomes, how many of the mini-Maquis raiders do we see during this episode, and after? If (as stated in dialogue) they only have two at that stage, it's not much of a problem if only one is stated to have been in action: the other could still be having the new weaps retro-fitted to it. And they could have obtained more of this raider type later.
posted
To be sure, we do see the two "Maquis pt II" ships fire weapons that are atypical of Starfleet. Namely, the sextuple wing cannon are seen firing very narrow, very brief pulses, quite unlike any phaser FX previously shown. Those could easily be the "pulse cannon" that won't fit on any other ship type (even though the rest of the arsenal will)...
Is that "support courier" from script? In the dialogue, Brooks could be saying anything from "courier" to "carrier" to "Harrier" (perhaps a sister design to Peregrine!).
Apart from those, I fully subscribe to the "Ro flew a Peregrine" school of thought.
But the big Maquis ship ain't an Antares. Ju'day, perhaps. But Antares, no way.
posted
THe fighters from DS9 are supposed to have a crew (assuming the length is about that of a Runabout) of about 4, so they could have served as couriers during peacetime: remember that the Federation once shot their Klingon Ambassador off in a torpedo so riding shotgun in a Runabout-sized fighter is a biiiig improvment in accomidations.
By DS9, the fighters have defiant-esque pulse phasers from the front and what appear to be mictotorpedos in their wings.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Abaddon: Hmmm....while I love "Perigrine" to describe the fed fighter, your idea could work.
Yeah, but I hate myself for it. I was all set on the whole Peregrine=FedFighter thing. If it weren't for the direct statement that Peregrine=courier-of-something, I'd never have bought such a notion.
quote:Originally posted by TSN: particle accelerators (that's a weapon?)
Depends on the particles being accelerated. Those of your opponent's head, for instance.
The mounting issue is odd, given that the Maquis Tac-Fighters did not apparently carry the weapons. Then again . . . a-ha!!! . . . we only see Cal Hudson's ship fire. The other vessel had its propulsion systems knocked out before it apparently had a chance to contribute. Since we did not see that ship fire, we could assume that it received some of the purchased armaments. Cal's fighter might've been the relatively-normal-loadout torpedo-boat to the other ship's beam weapon bonanza.
I agree, though, that it's possible we've never seen a Peregrine at all. Or, if there were other small ship types from "Strike", then it could've been one of those. However, given the preponderance of Maquis usage, I would lean toward the same sort of vessels being common both on screen and in dialogue.
quote:Originally posted by Lee: About section 6, the Counter-indications: from what you say, it seems that the fighters you do actually see are of the SF Tac-Fighter type, correct? And they don't seem to have many of the heavy weapons purchased by Sakonna (I checked the spelling), just standard phasers and torps. Isn't that then proof that the other fighter, as mentioned in section 5 and unknown to Sisko, is of the mini-Maquis type?
It could be construed as such, yes. As I indicate, I don't really agree with the counterargument I present in that section, and that could be an additional reason.
As for the mini-Maquis (believed to be the Peregrine in the first post), I'm pretty sure we only ever saw them in "Preemptive Strike"[TNG7]. However, we saw a bunch of them.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
A courier is often used to refer to a person who carries messages and information. By extension, a courier ship might simply be a fast, small ship for securely and quickly carrying information, mail, etc. In the military today, I imagine that the smallest, fastest craft, such as fighters, are used as couriers.
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posted
The beam FX of the Maquis Tac-Fighter Cal Hudson flew were a little different than normal . . . quick, rapid-fire beams from the wings . . . but not so different as to seem un-phaser-like. The only weapons noted between Cal and his co-pilot were phasers and torpedoes.
It's true that the Tac-Fighters in "Sacrifice of Angels" fired small pulse thingies. I always took these to be pulse phasers. (Incidentally, the script claims they're quantum torpedoes, but I don't see how that could be the case from the wings.)
"Support courier" is not from the script . . . I hadn't checked it until now, actually. That is what the script says, however. I made the transcript from the dialogue . . . sounded quite clear to me.
As for the fighter crew count, we've never been told anything about the Federation Tac-Fighters. The only time we've seen the interior of one was thanks to Cal Hudson, and it sure wasn't a four-seater.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
But that leads into the VFX snafu of scaling in SOA. Those are about 25-32 meters long. Those tac fighters are purdy large.
Even on Cal's version, we only see the cockpit: there could be plenty of room behind him for a pair of bunks and two runabout consoles.
...though no onscreen version is as large as the idiotic measurement of 56 meters given by STTM.
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posted
Me, I'm convinced the Federation fighter is between 15 and 20 meters of length (scaling from the cockpit window)... That would allow it to be packed aboard an Akira in some quantity!
Oh, that and the wing-fold feature. The wings simply MUST fold at the seam next to the wing cannon, so that the contraption can land on level ground.
A "courier" should indeed be fast, but we don't really have any reason to think that the fighters or the Peregrines would be especially fast. I mean, the Peregrine couldn't even outrun a Runabout! Failing that, I'd hope for some other courierlike attributes, such as a comfortable passenger space (passengers and priority physical cargo being far more practical loads for a space courier than abstract information). Heck, the fighter doesn't even seem to have a proper doorway! (Not that any of the other designs do, for that matter...)
Timo Saloniemi
P.S. "Quantum" torpedoes in the script? Is this where the term really originates?
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posted
BUt that's in that tiny forward cockpit/compartment: that's only about 1/5 the fighter's overall length. Considering that TNG's shuttles seem to have paper thin impulse engines and do okay, theres a lot of unaccounted volume in the fighter.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I might point out that the Tac-Fighters (which I still believe are Peregrines) fired photon torpedoes in their harrying raids against Dukat's fleet in the beginning of "The Sacrifice of Angels". So that part of your theory doesn't work -- sorry, G2K.
Also, a "courier" could possibly just apply to ferrying computer-stored messages that are too sensitive to risk sending over subspace...
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