posted
As I explained before, in the Battle of Wolf 359 the Federation was at peace time conditions where there is a lower number ships in service than there is during war time conditions. Also pulling off other ships from their duties is sometimes a problem becuase that enemy could be using that fleet as a setup so where there is alrge gap from the ships that were pulled off can go through and destroy their target. Though considering that the Borg cube was only one ship and I doubt that the Borg would have sent another ship to be strategic.
Also if a government expects war, it will build up its forces so that they are not caught off gaurd when it actually starts. Possible figures are as follows:
posted
I posted the World War II figures just to show how much a single nation can produce in a course of a war. Anyways, the US went from a fleet of around 300 large ships to a fleet of 1500 large ships in about 5 years. During the war, the US could build a battleship in 32 months, a carrier in 15-20 months (vs. 32 months before the war), and an escort carrier in 8 months. Destroyers, subs, and liberty ships were built in 5, 7, and 1 month, respectively vs about 14 months before the war. In 1943 alone the US built more than 400 large combatants. Of course, the US switched over entirely to a war economy and diverted most production to defense use. The extent to which the Federation can or would do the same is unknown. With advanced production methods and 150 Federation members, Starfleet ships can probably be built at a comparable or even higher rate.
PS: Targetemployee, I am well aware that differences in technology (weapons speed, range, and yield) make comparisons of fleet sizes between WWII and the present day difficult (jeez, give me a break!). Of course, the main types of naval warfare in WWII (carrier vs carrier combat and amphibious landings) are unlikely to be as important today. I also know that a carrier task force can be destroyed from a hundred kilometers away by a single plane with a nuclear-tipped cruise missile and that we no longer use rickety little stringbags, which can't find anything on a cloudy day, carrying faulty 250-pound gravity bombs.
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
posted
So what you're saying is that with 150 members with an average of 3-5 billion on each planet that Starfleet can build more than just a few thousand ships? The problem I see with that Starfleet does have to maintain each ship with a crew and keep it fully operational. Also each ship needs to be refueled so that would mean that additional non-combat ships are needed maybe not Starfleet but it is needed by Starfleet. Also Starfleet teritory is very arge and needs starbases large and small.
If Starfleet had tens of thousands of ships (not Danube and Peregrine) then they wouldn't have to worry about 1,200 ships as indicated by SoA and Breen ships
------------------ It is better to walk the path of the devil than to be in the path of the devil. Though it still might not be the right path.
posted
Keep in mind that even the largest aircraft carriers built in the US in peacetime take less than 10 years to build, whereas the Enterprise-D took over twenty. Construction times are most likely not directly proportional.
------------------ "Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa." -Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
SF has >30,000 ships supported by 150 member worlds x say, 10 colonies each... 1500 worlds. Of that, say 1 out of 10 has a significant starbase of some sort, so that's 150 starbases, but we know that's a low number, we've heard of higher... So obviously, the ration is more like 1 in 2 planets has a significant starbase. 750 major facilities, countless thousands of outposts, etc... You'd think such a large infrastructure could support a mere 30,000 ships, each requiring a LOT less than a starbase, and seeing how starships are actually fairly self-sufficient (a la Voyager). 30,000 x say, an average of 400 crew/ship = 12,000,000 officers, which is not outrageous for an entity with a population in the hundreds of billions... And that is assuming every one of those 30,000 ships is a capital-sized ship... Is this making sense to you? Seems fairly conservative to me.
Anywho, 1200 ships is a considerable amount, even with 30,000. Remember, you cannot realistically have all 30,000 in one place at one time, they'd be spread across thousands of lys. 1200 ships would leave a moderate region of the Federation undefended, and would require time to redistribute the fleet to compensate. Therefore, during the wanning days of the Dominion War, those 1200 ships were the only ships within a reasonable distance, making them very important in the short term. Everyone always seems to fail to take travel times into account, including the actual show...
But obviously, 30,000 capital ships is very unresonable, an entity like the Federation simply has no need for that much military hardware, however, these figures show that it's not necessarily out of the range of possibility. Certainly, the fleet has never been below 10,000 ships, with perhaps 30-50% of them as capital ships of all sizes, the rest are fighters and support craft...
End theory, begin arguements.
------------------ Sheridan: "Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless and totally consistant with what I've come to expect from a Vorlon..." Kosh: "Good." Sheridan: "I REALLY hate it when you do that..." Kosh: "Good."
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
:::shakes head::: I SWORE I wasn't gonna get involved...PROMISED myself I wouldn't get involved....
Ah, fukkit.
I'm on the same side as Adam & Masao. There is zero reason why an entity as large as the Federation shouldn't have a combined fleet ranging in the tens of thousands. I've done my own thoughts on this, some of which I'll share here; for more in-depth reasons, you can consult my timeline or my J-Project FAQ.
By 2365, I figure Starfleet had approximately 17,000 vessels in service, �1500. That's COMBINED--"ships of the line," tankers, freighters, science vessels, medical ships, small transports, anything with an NCC prefix; that excludes anything like Peregrines & shuttles, which fall under craft (& probably number in the hundreds of thousands). Then the Borg hit. They hit hard & fast. As Adam said, 2 or 3 days, pull in as many ships as you can & make a stand. This was a turning point.
From this single incursion, we know the Defiant Project arose. Some have speculated that the Sovereigns were conceived of because of this event as well--beleive what you will. In any rate, there were obvious tensions rising & more Borg encounters (Excalibur & Endeavour, to name 2). Starfleet begins a crash program of upgrades, refits, & shipbuilding; call it a new total of 286 ships per year.
Flash-forward about 5 years. Bajor is now under Federation protection. The wormhole's been found. The disastrous first contact with the Dominion has occurred. The Cardassians are getting antsy & the Maquis are still annoying little globflies. Tensions rising again, Starfleet increases shipbuilding to 350 ships per year. Then the shit hits the fan. From the middle of 2371 to the beginning of 2376, Starfleet is embroiled in one militray action after another: the cold war with the Dominion in 2371, the Klingon conflict of 2372 & early '73, the 2nd Sector 001 Brog incursion & the "upping of the ante" vis-a-vis the Cardassians & the Dominion in 2373, the start of open hostilities at the end of the same year & running for 2 full years. By the end of 2371, Starfleet HAD to be on a major kick; in my own universe, I upped it to 1879 ships a year. Crews shouldn't be a problem--like WW2 & even the Gulf War, every able being probably signed up for service.
But why did we see so LITTLE of these ships until the war? Simple. There was no NEED to. Notice how the same names keep getting thrown around? The CairoHood near Klingon space, etc. These are their assigned areas, much like today's fleets Only certain vessels like the Enterprisewould be "floaters." And even in wartime, you still need to patrol your borders & keep a prescence. Remember in "Pale Moonlight," Worf mentioning that the Dominion was raiding from Romulan space? I'd certainly bee a chunk of assets there to stop that.
Eventually, I figure that by the end of the war at the end of 2375, Starfleet had about 28,300 vessels �2150. This is where the WW2 parallels end; in WW2, the uS had to eventually pare down the fleet, partially because of technological advancements, partially because of money, & partially because of the lack of need. But Starfleet has no money, there were no significant tech advances, & there's ALWAYS a need. As I state in my timeline, the first duty of the fleet is exploration. So go explore. You've forged new alliances, you have the Cardassians to help rebuild...& eventually, maybe exploration of the Gamma Quadrant can start again.
------------------ "Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
posted
Mr. Tom: I never liked that 20-year construction figure for the EntD. It seems to long. If I remember correctly, that's only from the Tech Manual and not established in an episode. Anyways, does that seem likely that the second ship of a class would take so long to build? Is that 20 years actual construction time or does that include design and development? Even if we can rationalize this length of time on the basis of the number of welds or carpets or whatever, I'm not sure whether Starfleet were actually want ships that took so long to build.
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
posted
First, take note that the Galaxy Class took 20 years from concept to service, but only took about 10 to construct, and that includes severaly production delays.
According to the TNG Tech Manual: 2343-Galaxy Class project approved. They don't even have a design at this point, but they have a specification for what they want the ship to do. 2348-Hull materials selected and ordered. 2350-first frame components attached. Problems with the fabrication of the Warp Nacelles and the Computer Cores delayed part of the project, but 2357-USS Galaxy is commisioned. the exact date USS Yamato was commisioned is unknown, but it was before 2363 when uss Enterprise was commissioned.
Considering that the problems with the Computer Cores delayed all ships under construction by 2 years, and the Warp coils were delivered 4 years late, 13 years from bigining construction to commissioning isn't so bad.
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
posted
Sorry, haven't read the TNGTM for a while. In any case, aircraft carriers built today don't take 13 years. I'd also point out that I imagine the Federation devoted a greater chunk of its resources to the construction of Enterprise than the government of the USA devoted towards the building of the USS Abraham Lincoln
------------------ "Truth about Santa Claus debunks Santa God. God evolves from Santa." -Gene Ray, http://www.timecube.com
posted
So, if we needed to crank out Galaxies or similar-sized ships in a hurry, how long do you think it would take to build a single ship starting from the laying of the keel (or analogous component), not counting delays?
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
Seven months in true Kaiser fashion (meaning 24/7 working). The smart yardmaster would have concurrent work on 2 or 3 or possibly even 4 of the same class going on.
And here's a fun little bit of info. I looked in my Almanac of Naval Facts (� 1964 US Naval Institute) & found the fiscal year Navy strengths for WW2. Remember, FYs start 1 July & end 30 June. So:
30 June 1940: Navy strength 1099 ships, 203,127 men 30 June 1941: Navy strength 1899 ships, 358,021 men 30 June 1942: Navy strength 5612 ships, 843,096 men 30 June 1943: Navy strength 18,493 ships, 2,207,720 men 30 June 1944: Navy strength 46,032 ships, 3,623,205 men 30 June 1945: Navy strength 67,952 ships, 4,031,097 men
------------------ "Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
[This message has been edited by Shik (edited July 14, 2000).]
Let say during wartime, .5% of the Federation's population went to join the service. With the Federation's population of about 350 billion then Starfleet's rooster would be well above a billion and perhaps almost 2 billion. That's more than enough to man a couple HUNDRED thousand ships if not millions.
However, it would not be good for the politics of the Federation to support that amount of ships. Hell, it would be like saying in today "We want to build 1,000 3 billion dollar aircraft carriers"
------------------ It is better to walk the path of the devil than to be in the path of the devil. Though it still might not be the right path.
posted
7 months for a Galaxy?? That seems pretty fast, given that you need to assemble about 5 million tons of stuff. The largest US WWII carriers (Midways) displaced only around 50,000 tons (1% of Galaxy!) and still took about 15-20 months to slap together. Maybe the lack of gravity and and the use of assembler robots help speed things along. Also, the nacelles and other components are probably in specialized facillities and attached when completed. So I suppose 7 months might be possible. (Of course, I think that this 5 million ton displacement is at least 3 times too high, but that's another issue)
The extent that the US population (as well as that of other countries) was mobilized for WWII is amazing. If the population of the country was around 140 million (adults and children), the 18 million in uniform represents about 13% of the country. You also need to include the millions more civilians in defense-related industries. Of course the US had universal male conscription, so It's unlikely that the Federation could reach this number. I doubt that the Starfleet has a draft. But the 0.5% that Matrix mentions should be more than enough to man all the ships we could ever conceive. So, the lack of manpower shouldn't ultimately limit fleet size, but might in the short term.
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
Well, like I said, Masao...that's in Kaiser fashion. It assumes that there's 3 full shifts & construction runs around the clock. If they take the night off, that of course would set things back.
BTW, I love your work on the Museum. We should get together soemtime--I've loads of ideas for patches, histories, classes, & other things..
------------------ "Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
posted
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoy the museum. Although I'm pretty busy with my own projects, I'd be happy to hear about any ideas you might have. Email me [email protected]).
Back to the topic. So I think it's pretty clear that Starfleet could build a fleet of 30,000 ships fairly rapidly if it wanted to, but the question is would it actually do so? Would such a large fleet be stategically necessary or useful?
------------------ When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
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