posted
Yup,that would be "Birthright I/II". But the map in itself isn't conclusive proof, since we don't know its orientation - the "coreward" edge could in fact have been the "rimward" one for all we know, since there is no absolute rule that the core has to be "up" in a Trek map. Note for example that the final attack on Cardassia Prime, starting directly from DS9, went "from upper left to lower right" on the map used in the finale - even though it is pretty well established that DS9 has to be closer to Earth than Cardassia is.
Then again, "Birthright" seems to prove that Cardassian and Romulan spaces are very close to each other, if Shrek's teeny weeny shuttle could travel between them in a reasonable time. This fits well with some travel time data that require both the RNZ and DS9 to be rather close to Earth.
posted
No problem with Romulans and Klingons being "vertically stacked". Except perhaps the noncanon DS9 Tech Manual map that seems to show a tiny Klingon Empire rimward of a much larger Romulan Star Empire. But even that could be explained as artistic liberty - of the Klingon Empire, only the core would be shown and the parts obscured by the Romulan holdings in that projection omitted.
In any case, I would still like to have Romulus extend more towards the core, and Klingons more towards the rim - that way, the Borg would have a grater chance of running into the former instead of into the latter.
quote:You know, I find this all silly, for one BIG reason. You're thinking two-dimentionally! It was Khan's undoing, after all. The Cardies and Rommies pretty much have to share a border. The Klingons and Rommies share a border, for sure. The Klingons and Cardies share a border. The Fed borders all three. The only way this works in in 3D space. 2D maps will not suffice.
I can make this work in 2d: The federation is in the middle, the romulans border the cardassians and the federation, the cardassians wrap around the other side of the federation, and the klingons wrap the bottom. You can even have areas of unexplored space between the borders: while the klingon border touches the Federation border at some point, there may be large areas that are unexplored.
Of course space is 3d, and one must account for that, but the galaxy itself is not very deep, and at the diameters many people propose, an empire would HAVE to extend from the top to the bottom. While there is additional space above and below the disk, there are amazingly few stars out there, and what there is are Population One stars that are highly unlikely to have any planets (as they formed when hydrogen and helium was all there was in the universe). Depending on who you ask, the galactic disk near Earth is from 1000 to 3000 lightyears thick. An empire 4000ly across would have encountered the edge of this area a while ago.
the most reliable data I have says:"Thickness of the Galaxy at/near Earth: An area 50 Parsecs (163ly) thick will include 65% of the stars, while an area 1000ly thick will contain 95% of the stars."
While someone has proposed that the space empires will resemble a bucket full of marbles, a frying pan full of golf balls seems a better analogy.
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
posted
Well, My first map, is 3D... if you were to move it around... you'd see a rough 'bubble' its basically a rough estimate, cause we don't really know on such a large scale how the borders move... so I've just had the more colour the closer to the center, the more likely it is say, Breen space... there are gaps... OF course the closer you get to Earth, the more likely it is that you are in Federation Space. They 'fuzz' or overlap with each other, that is why I don't like to draw straight line boarders... its hopeless. I tried once and realise you'd go crazy trying to even draw it as a straight line. It'd be like trying to draw the coastline of Australia - when all you had to go by was a list of cities and general locations... Brisbane is North of Sydney, Hobart is in Tasmania etc.
------------------ "I threw bitter tears at the ocean But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan
posted
Andrew, I think your map is beautiful, and very well thought out. If you're interested, I'd like to generate a 3D version from a 2D version. I fear it might cause even more controversy, but it would certainly be fun to try. I'm not a cannon-god or anything, but I do a lot of 3D stuff, and I'd be very interested in constructing a quasi-definitive map...
------------------ "I�d say we have about three hours before we get a call from mister brain-bomb." - VIDROS
quote:The Cardies and Rommies pretty much have to share a border. The Klingons and Rommies share a border, for sure. The Klingons and Cardies share a border. The Fed borders all three. The only way this works in in 3D space. 2D maps will not suffice.
So, my challenge here is to create a map that is 2d, and that shows a Federation bordered by Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans, such that: a) the Romulans border the Klingons and the Cardassians b) the Cardassians border the Klingons and the Romulans c) the Klingons border the Romulans and the Cardassians.
Should be easy enough. In the GIF below, the Federation is red. The other 3 colors my be assigned to whichever empire you think it suits best. I believe this fits the need.
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
[This message has been edited by spyone (edited October 10, 2000).]
posted
Well, that works as far as it goes, but you also have to have open space in there for them to explore, and Bajor, and the Federation's borders with the Tzenkethi, and Tholians, and Gorn, and those dudes from "Conundrum"...
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
quote: The following list is in XYZ coordinates, w/ Sol at (0,0,0), the Y axis pointing toward the galactic center but parallel to the galactic plane, the YZ plane forming the alpha/beta-quadrant border, positive X values in the beta quadrant and negative in the alpha, and all numbers expressed in light-years. I've only included stars that are already depicted on your map.
Are you SURE you did that right? See, this data conflicts with a lot of what I have heard. First off, as I look at the map with Earth directly down from the Galactic core, the Alpha Quadrant lies left of Earth and the Beta Quadrant right. I'm just making sure we're using the same terms, because your coordinates put things I'm pretty sure go to the left of Earth on the right.
Second, are you dure you got the order right for Deneb's Coordinates? The ones you list put it 150 ly from the Alpha/Beta border and almost 1600 ly coreward. Everything I've seen says that Deneb is slightly rimward and mainly "left" of Earth.
And, should you be kind enough to volunteer your time, can you also locate: Antares Canopus gamma hydrae gamma tauri delta orionis (mintaka) epsilon bootis (Izar)
Thank you.
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
I grant you all that. This is why I bothered to quote you statement. It is quite possable that you cannot make a satisfactory map of all the powers except in 3d. It is quite possable that you can't do it EVEN in 3d. But that is not what you said. You said That one couldn't map those 4 powers with each bordering the ones it is supposed to in 2d, and I knew I could.
As for adding other powers.....
------------------ You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
posted
spyone: Well, I once found a site that explained how to calculate galactic coordinates from right ascension and declination, so I'm pretty sure these are right. They might seem funny if you're thinking of the alpha/beta border as being perpendicular to the Solar system. I used to do that, too. The proble is that the Solar system is not parallel to the galaxy.
Anyway, I should have those other coordinates. Let's see...
I'm afraid I haven't got Gamma Hydrae or Gamma Tauri. They're both on my list, but there aren't any numbers. If you can get me the right ascension, declination, and distance, I think I still have the program I wrote on my calculator to find the coordinates...
------------------ Teal'c: "I am a traitor to no-one." Jaffa woman: "Except your god!" Teal'c: "False god! Dead false god..." -Stargate: SG-1, "Into the Fire"
X = R * cos b * cos l Y = R * cos b * sin l Z = R * sin b
To check the work use
tan l = Y/X sin b = Z/R
I am working on plotting out 291,211 stars that are with in 8,200 light years from Sol. I decided to use only stars with a parallax of 0.0004 arc sec. and higher.
mmmm, yeah, it's a slow process.
I used a Quattro Pro Spreadsheet.
------------------ Stupid bastards and religious freaks, so safe in their castle keeps...
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited October 10, 2000).]
posted
Ritten: See, the problem there is exactly what I was tlaking about. It doesn't account for the fact that 0° declination is not parallel to the galactic plane, therefore 90° declination is not the alpha/beta border. Your coordinates will give you an accurate map, I suppose, but you won't be able to properly include the alpha/beta border.
------------------ Teal'c: "I am a traitor to no-one." Jaffa woman: "Except your god!" Teal'c: "False god! Dead false god..." -Stargate: SG-1, "Into the Fire"
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