quote:Originally posted by Sean: Why can't it be accepted that Starfleet is like the NAVY of the Federation. Like a modern day navy, it has a science branch ( Oberth class, nova class), but it's main goal is to protect the space of the Federation. It's ships may make contact with planets and other governments, but who's to say that there isn't a diplomatic branch of the federation, that is completely different from starfleet. That branch has it's own ships, whose crews are less militaristic, like on a fishing boat. There are positions to be filled, and everyone has his/her place, but it is somewhat casual. We've seen Science vessels that are not Starfleet's, like the Vico, the Raven, or possibly the ship that Jillian Taylor is assigned to at the end of ST IV. She was, afterall wearing a uniform that looked a lot different from Starfleet standard issue. Even though Starfleet may send a ship in to an area to take scans and "discover " what ever weekly anomaly is there to be found, after the area is deemed safe, this Federation science organization may be sent in after the SF ship, or after the SF science ship that comes in second. SF may have a cargo division, but that may be used only for starfleet specific needs. Maybe the Federation has a Cargo organization, that is used to keep the infastructure of the ENTIRE Fed. flowing smoothly. Also, following in the lines of my rant, the Fed. would also have a transportation service. WHy would SF have to ferry everyone around to their destinations? The Fed. would also have an ARMY, used on planets to keep the peace, after the SF marines have landed and done their jobs. If you think of The Federation as a giant country, composed of thousands of islands, it would make sense that we see more of Starfleet( the navy) than anything else, but that doesn't mean that it is the ultimate multitasking orginization, the only organization that keeps the Federation alive.
FINALLY, someone that thinks like me. Thanks Sean.
Registered: Nov 2001
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Just thinking logically. As for the 22nd century Earth Starfleet, it would have had to take on a few more roles, like cheif duplomatic organization, primary science organization, and part of "the military"- the MACOs being the other part. For destinations that are far away by the standards of the time, ESF would be the primary transport organization, with colonies that are near earth mostlikely having their own dedicated transport services. This isn,t really much of a problem, because after a planet is colonized, which would require the use of a dedicated colonization vessel, any large group of people going to the far off colony would mostlikely be sent on a second large colonization ship, with the few straglers, or people needed in a hurry like a special doctor being carried by Starfleet. Once the technology of civilian transports reached that of starfleet, or at least a level of tech that SF found usefull, (like Warp 5 and protein resequincers, and transporters) Starfleet would not be required for this role.
-------------------- "Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten
"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity". -George Carlin
Registered: Jul 2007
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
quote:Originally posted by Sean: I probably just caused more confusion than I hoped to help solve. Sorry for that.
Yeah, because it's a giant fucking block of text. Learn to use paragraphs, repost it & then get back to me.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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One of my favorite discussions with my other trekkie friends is how big the Fed's military is. To be effective over the amount of space and population they have to protect, Starfleet would have to have tens of thousands of ships and perhaps a billion plus personnel. The Fed Army would have to number in the billions. Add in equivalents to things like coast guard, terrestrial militaries, the Federation Navy thing, and so forth - huge military complex.
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
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It's just not about what we think is logical or not logical. Look at the screen - those ships aren't military ships. They have children on board. Arboretums, holodecks, social lounges, spacious quarters with luxurious accoutrements. They have massive scientific and diplomatic capabilities - sensor pallets, laboratories, guest quarters, conference rooms, the ability to modify internal environments to suit a variety of species comfortably. Even the brig is small and not very often used, and the crew is generally not even armed. Whatever the Federation is or isn't, whatever Starfleet as a whole is or isn't (to our speculation), the ships we've seen are clearly not primarily warships. Anything else is not canon and is just speculation.
Registered: Jul 2005
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The Enterprise had children onboard. No other ship was shown to carry them except for Voyager, and that one just happened to be born aboard.
The Galaxy was a gigantic wallowing whale of a ship that that was extremely heavily armed.
It seems that each and every Starfleet ship is carrying around enough of an arsenal to completely depopulate a world. Soft carpets and pretty drapes aside, there was no ignoring the military environment aboard the ship.
What we see on the screen is merely the limits of the writer's imagination and the episode's budget. Were things designed with logic and realism in mind, the Trek world would have a much different look.
I honestly don't understand the willful determination it takes to try to twist the Trek world into what we're told it's *supposed* to be rather than admitting that the evidence doesn't support it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ahkileez: The Enterprise had children onboard. No other ship was shown to carry them except for Voyager, and that one just happened to be born aboard.
The Galaxy was a gigantic wallowing whale of a ship that that was extremely heavily armed.
There was also the Saratoga with Sisko's family, a bit less "whale"-ish.
-------------------- Old jedi never die... The just fade in and out.
Registered: Mar 2006
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Well, the Saratoga is speculatred to be a science ship. I think that SF started to "soften" between ST VI, and TNG, thus somewhat explaining the carpeted floors and relative comfort observed in TNG.
The Cardassian wars happened like 20+ years eariler, the Klingons were subdued by the Khitomer Accords, and the Romulans were no where to be seen. THe borg had yet to be encountered, no one knew of the Dominion. It was a time of extreme peace ( for the Federation at least) and prosperity, like Pax Romana. So, Starfleet added a lot of luxury to their designs.
And, crews were supposed to spend lots of time onboard their ships ( 5 yr+ missions) so they have to have some sort of luxury, or morale would drop pretty fast. The standard tour opf duty in most Navies is what, 6 months to a year? ( I'm sure someone will know exact numbers) The Saratoga class looks like it has no where near the amount of luxuries that a Galaxy class has. Mostlikely because they were sent on shorter missions. As technology improves to allow longer missions, and crews were out in space for longer and longer periods of time, the crews required more luxuries to maintain morale and stay effective.
And the Galaxy class was like the "big experiment" with families en masse, wasn't it? I'm sure thart a few people on long durartion missions would be allowed to bring their families, and then, I'm sure that there would be a rank requirment, like leiutenant or hightr to be able to have family. THe family would also be going onboard at the understanding that they were risking their lives to do it.
-------------------- "Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten
"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity". -George Carlin
Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ahkileez: I honestly don't understand the willful determination it takes to try to twist the Trek world into what we're told it's *supposed* to be rather than admitting that the evidence doesn't support it.
You maybe missing the point that people want to have the idealistic view of the future that Trek is capable of embodying. Realism and the idealistic visions of utopia can not be resolved in to one point of view.
So, while this debate has been interesting to some degree, it will end as the political and religious debate threads have here. Kind of petering out with no one's point of view changed and no one particularly enlightened.
It is like the concept of a money-less society that Picard touted. Not very realistic in the least, but very idealistic indeed.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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You're right of course, Ritten. I just hate being attacked because I like Star Trek but I'm not an acolyte of the Church of Roddenberry.
Registered: Nov 2001
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
posted
You say you like Star Trek, yet you attack everything it stands for in the minds of fans and call it 'crap' ...
Registered: Jul 2005
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I expect to be struck by a bolt of lightning for saying this, but... it's just a tv show to me. A tv show with a lot of creative toys to play with for sure, but still just a show. Trek doesn't 'stand for' anything - to me.
An unpopular opinion, no doubt.
I don't consider our world a utopia. I don't think utopia's possible without every human on the planet being prescribed enormous amounts of lithium till we're nothing but drugged up bambis lying on the side of the road.
Registered: Nov 2001
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Well, the foundation of Communism was based off of an idea of a utopian society, and look how that turned out. Revolutionists were SUPPOSED to give their aquired power to the people, but selfish as people are, that always failed.
-------------------- "Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten
"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity". -George Carlin
Registered: Jul 2007
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thanks Sean.
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