quote:Originally posted by Shik: There is the possibility of how the US Army was until the late 1800s: state militia & guards-based. That allows for some interesting ideas in terms of units: the Blue Line (all Andorians) Surak's Shield (Vulcan-based unit specializing primarily in defense), as well as resurrecting the old Earth units--101st Spaceborne, the Taman Guards, the Queen's Own Highlanders.
That's what I was trying to describe - a UFP "army" being made up of local militia/guards.
I agree with Rev that some effort to standardize across cultures would be done. The differences in biology would still lead to a lot of diversity, I'd think. Standardization would probably focus on something we might recognize as web standards - basic communications protocols and some sort of universal system of naming (even if it is mostly via the computer).
As for the "worrying about how it looks" thing. That is always a primary concern. Maintaining just enough tough image to keep from being attacked while not so tough that they attack you because they're scared is a vital component of diplomacy.
If you think that is only true "for the good guys" then read the history between Hitler and Stalin. In trek terms the UFP clearly scared/worried the Dominion - but failed to look tough enough to avoid being attacked. If they'd had one of the big "mushroom" starbases at the wormhole with a dozen Defiants....
Besides, UFP only really needs local forces and a strong fleet to deter known alpha quadrant powers.
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quote:If they'd had one of the big "mushroom" starbases at the wormhole with a dozen Defiants....
Then they would have attacked much sooner and with overwhelming force. They did what they did because they knew enough about the Federation to know that unless it was directly provoked, the Federation would always explore a diplomatic solution before a military one, so they took the slower, more sneaky approach. It would have worked too, if the Prophets hadn't intervened.
The way I see it, to a smaller outside force (like the Ferengi, Breen or Gorn) the Federation looks at first glance like a bunch of soft pacifists. In other words, easy target or something not liable to meddle with their own expansion. Of course the bigger powers like the Romulans and Klingons know differently, that while they're not exactly "Warriors" in either culture's frame of reference, there's a bloody awful lot of them, they all share a respectable level of technology and if you attack one, the other one hundred and forty nine will jump on you.
I suppose you could compare the Feds to a particularly large herd of elephants. Essentially peaceful creatures, but you really don't want to piss them off on mass, if you can possibly avoid it. Safer to try picking off the odd straggler when the others aren't looking.
Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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quote:Originally posted by Sean: Would they still use kukris?
Yes, but they'd be powered by lasers!!!
Haven't the Vulcan security forces or ministry or department or something been mentioned more than once in TNG and DS9?
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I should say the fact that not even their enemies appear to fear the Fed, combined with what Rua'fo said in Insurrection, they aren't nearly as tough as we've come to assume by being watchers of their propaganda films.
Their sheer mass seems to be a big factor, but they have enemies that are their equals technologically.
I'll always argue that the Fed has an army because it cannot be otherwise. 'Militia' have their place in the form of the local defense forces of the Fed's constituent elements, but the whole is not always stronger than the sum of its parts. A multitudinous force will often fight less effectively than a single integrated force will. Not to mention they'd present a logistical nightmare.
Armies are used to defend. But they are also used to police, to patrol and to extend power. They're used for humanitarian purposes, for training, to provide an avenue for young men and women (and any other genders) to learn and to serve their people. There's also the fact that if you do need to fight a ground war somewhere, it's highly unlikely that a species who has a force built strictly as a local militia kind of entity will have the ability to transport their units to where they need to go - which means you have to do it and have a huge reserve fleet of troop transports sitting around for no explicable reason.
The problem with always using a territorial approach is that you are unprepared for anything but a defensive strategy, and everybody knows that if you can avoid it, you should never try to fight a war on your own land because you'll often end up being the one who takes the biggest losses.
Armies exist for very good reasons. And to try to toss one together out of whatever's lying around the Fed doesn't make one iota of sense. It merely satisfies the Trek fan's expectations of what the tv show has told them: That Starfleet is the beginning and end of the Fed, and the Fed doesn't fight wars on the ground.
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Rev - it remains to be seen if they could have projected "overwhelming force" through the wormhole if the Feds had a real station w/ whatever would constitute as "heavy defenses". They had an obsolescent Cardie mining station.
Ahkileez - I think when you're talking about an army spread out as much as the UFP having a "multitudinous" force may be *less* of a logistical nightmare than trying to maintain consistency across the light years and multiple biological forms. Each world or sector could set up their own supply chain. You probably can't move meaningful numbers from one side of the UFP to the other faster than you can train and replicate gear on the side under attack.
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No. I don't expect you can move people faster than you can replicate gear, but you can have large segments of that Army (big A) stationed on key worlds in key sectors without relying on a piecemeal approach - and certainly faster than fast-tracking some forehead-alien-of the week Fed Member through some kind of integrated bootcamp. Some militias will always be less effective than others for completely intrinsic reasons that can't be surmounted.
Earth, for example, might have a couple of armies (little A) fortified there, Vulcan a couple more, Betazed a couple more and so on and so forth the same way armies are broken down and detached in a modern environment.
Anyway, I'm going to stop derailing Rev's thread, hehe. Rev, where's those new pics!
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Hmm. Don't think we're going to agree. I see what you're saying, but I can't imagine the resources being worth it. I'd put all my resources into powerful ships, take the non-key worlds with inferior troops and cut your superior troops off.
If I can keep them from getting out of their gravity well I win as I can pick them of at my leisure.
It sounds like you're thinking of fighting D-day and I'm thinking of the Pacific war where the land forces are secondary compared to the naval forces. Not to take anything away from the Marines...I've climbed the hill at Peleliu.
But yes, pictures.
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quote:I'll always argue that the Fed has an army because it cannot be otherwise.
Ah, this would be the part where we totally disagree and I don't think either of us will convince the other. As for the militia, I was only using Bajor as an example as it's the only (potential) instance of Starfleet absorbing a local force which we have any degree of insight on. Getting the locals up to Starfleet standard would only happen when a new world joins, the majority of worlds in the Federation (and potentially thousands of colony worlds) have been members for a century or more and so the local planet bound Stafleet detachment would mostly be made up of enlisted personnel recruited from the local population who have no immediate wish to serve on a Starship, are on a waiting list to get a Starship assignment or are semi-retired and have chosen to come back to their homeworld in the role of a specialist or in leadership roles. There'd also be a percentage of reservists made up of retired officers and enlisted that can be re-activated if need be.
Put simply, I don't see the ground forces of Starfleet delineated into a separate branch of the service (such as Army, Airforce, Navy) StarFLEET is just one service. People in Stafleet who happen to serve on planets mostly do so out of choice and come under Starfleet Security, since Starfleet are responsible for the security of member worlds.
quote:Rev - it remains to be seen if they could have projected "overwhelming force" through the wormhole if the Feds had a real station w/ whatever would constitute as "heavy defenses". They had an obsolescent Cardie mining station.
Well sure, it's a totally hypothetical scenario so you could argue it one way or the other. I'll just say they with the sheer numbers of ships they were able to assemble in the Gamma quadrant to go to Cardassia between "Inferno's Light" and "Call to Arms" I think it's safe to say that they have formidable resources at their disposal. In point of fact Starfleet believed it was worth loosing all those ships in "Sacrifice of Angel" if it meant cutting off access to the wormhole, so the threat is significant.
posted
Well, Rev said this thing was armed with phasers, so I'm assuming arrays or emitters. That doesn't look much like a phaser, and if it was, it would have a severely limited arc, no good for covering fire. So I'd say it is an antenna. The thingies on the front of the pontoons look like phasers.
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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Would hoppers necessarily have USS names like that? I mean, a transport aircraft today might have a name but not with USS in front of it. Wouldn't it be more like a nickname? Like, NCC 55555 "Roger Young" ?
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The hopper might be from the Roger Young, hence why the ncc number is stamped on it. Kind like a shuttle craft. It looks to me that the hopper's registry is RVK06190/B, whatever that means...
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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Rodger Young. Bitches.
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