posted
Makes sense. I would guess that the original John Conner from Timeline A was still Sarah's son, just by a different man. When Reese came back had his night of naughty with Sarah, it wiped out the original John Connor and created a new child. Sarah, of course, named him John because that's what Reese told her that her son would be named.
Oh... one more thing... what was the rational behind making T3's model 101 a T-850 instead of a T-800 like the other 2?
posted
Nah, John Connor is the result of a pre-destination paradox. He had to send Reese back to ensure his own existance.
I admit it gets confusing because things keep getting changed. The timeline stays the same, so far in T1 & T2 attempts to altered in fact caused it to happen.
For example: John sends Reese back in time to protect his mother. Sarah would eventually tell John the truth about his father which is why he was chosen. Reese and Sarah destroy the Terminator, but its technology is discovered by Cyberdyne who would eventually develope Skynet. In a sense, Reese was sent back to create John and the Terminator was sent back which lead to Skynet and its own creation. Furthermore, John only exists because of the war. If Judgement Day and the war were truely stopped John would cease to exist. There would be no war, no Terminator ever built to kill Sarah and Reese would have never been sent back.
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quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Oh... one more thing... what was the rational behind making T3's model 101 a T-850 instead of a T-800 like the other 2?
Where was that mentioned?
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posted
Mmm. But can you have a timeline that includes both a predestination paradox and an alternate universe? Because the latter is certainly created when JC (heh) sends the Terminator back in T2. JC knew that "the future is not set" so, while he could send Reese back in the safe assumption that he would end up shagging Sarah, he couldn't know what effect the Terminator's interaction with his teenage self and his other would have. Otherwise he oculd have programmed in the info about the silent alarm being triggered at Cyberdyne and they wouldn't have nearly gotten cornered by the SWAT guys.
posted
John Connor's existence may be a pre-destination paradox, but the thing about PDPs is that, while they're possible, there has to be an original timeline to get things started. Timeline A, John Connor-A wins, sends Reese back in time. Timeline B, John Connor-B wins and sends Reese back in time. He's responsible for his own existence, but someone else started the loop.
Similarly, Skynet sent the Terminator back, and that terminator caused Skynet's existence, which is also a PDP. However, in the meta-original timeline A, Skynet-A was developed in the natural course of technological evolution, just as John Connor-A was born without temporal interference. Skynet sent the Terminator back in time, and caused its own existence EARLIER than it would have otherwise occured.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
Time travel is really very confusing, isn't it?
I would be interested to hear why exactly everything seems to happen in and around LA. I mean John Conner and at least however many additional targets the T-X have all live in and around LA (based on the presumption that the T-X knew it only had a limited amount of time before Judgement Day to hunt and kill those people). And they're just the important ones who live in the area.
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posted
Time travel is really very confusing, isn't it?
I would be interested to hear why exactly everything seems to happen in and around LA. I mean John Conner and at least however many additional targets the T-X have all live in and around LA (based on the presumption that the T-X knew it only had a limited amount of time before Judgement Day to hunt and kill those people). And they're just the important ones who live in the area.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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Cartman
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posted
Which year was T1 set in, again? According to Reese, the T-800s start rolling of the assembly lines forty years later... if Skynet really pushed back its own inception date by sending Evil Ahnuld to kill Sarah, the model 101 Terminators (including Good Ahnuld) should also appear earlier in the alternate (T2) timeline, no?
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote:Originally posted by Cartmaniac: Which year was T1 set in, again? According to Reese, the T-800s start rolling of the assembly lines forty years later... if Skynet really pushed back its own inception date by sending Evil Ahnuld to kill Sarah, the model 101 Terminators (including Good Ahnuld) should also appear earlier in the alternate (T2) timeline, no?
1984, I think (not sure whether that was just because that was the year it was released or if it was a reference to Orwell). BTW, I was looking at the special features disk for T1 and early '80s trailers were realy bad.
According to the T3 website, the T-800 is the all metal one seen in the future war sequences.
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quote:Originally posted by Lee: Mmm. But can you have a timeline that includes both a predestination paradox and an alternate universe?
I would say hell no. Either 1)the changes you make in the past have already happened�they are your history before you actually travel�and you cannot alter the past, or 2) you can change time, creating an alternate timeline different from the one that existed before you messed with time. Therefore I agree with the opinion that the original John Connor was a different man (had a different father) and fortunately the John Connor that replaced him (Reese�s son) followed in his predecessor�s footsteps (or rather was pushed in them by his mom and Skynet�the original JC may have been the sort of individual who�d have ended up a great leader no matter what situation he ended up in, whereas Reese�s son was made the leader of the resistance by Skynet�s own actions).
The original flick obviously subscribed to the �you can�t change time� school. They meant JC�s conception to be the result of a predestination paradox. I don�t believe there was anything in the original Terminator that deviates from this. It was the second movie that screwed things up by confirming that by traveling though time, one did change the past (create a new timeline�thus there had to be a starting point, a clean timeline preceding the altered timelines that replaced it.
-------------------- "Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It?s us. Only us." Rorschach
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posted
I'm not sure T2 actually showed that anything had changed. What if Skynet sent the t-800 to '84 and the t-1000 to 90-whenever-t2-took-place at the same time, from the same timeline, as a back-up measure?
The resistance would've then sent Reese and the reprogrammed t-800 also at the same time.
From the future Sarah's and John's point of view in that timeline, the events of the first and second movie would've already happened (assuming Sarah was still alive).
The real change, then, would come after the destruction of Cyberdyne Systems, when the military began work on Skynet.
However, I believe you're right that the creators of T1 were going for the idea of a predestination paradox and never meant for the remains of the t-800 to factor into anything. At the end of the movie, we're presented with the idea that things will happen just as Reese told Sarah they did and that nothing had changed. T2 changes that.
quote: However, I believe you're right that the creators of T1 were going for the idea of a predestination paradox and never meant for the remains of the t-800 to factor into anything. At the end of the movie, we're presented with the idea that things will happen just as Reese told Sarah they did and that nothing had changed. T2 changes that.
...And then T3 changes it again by saying that there the timeline can be changed buy there are some things (in this case Judgment Day) that are inevitable.
Incidentally, some scenes that were cut from the original movie set up the second, with Sarah Conner finding out Cyberdynes's address and trying to persuade Reese to let her attack it.
...and an alternate ending for T2 showed an elderly Sarah Conner sitting in Washington in 2029 talking about the war that never happened. (Thank god for DVD extras )
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