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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Sci-Fi » General Sci-Fi » $$$$BSG Daybreak Part Two$$$$ (Page 5)

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Author Topic: $$$$BSG Daybreak Part Two$$$$
MinutiaeMan
Living the Geeky Dream
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I dunno, Lee, as I remember it we already saw Tyrol pull his hand out of the water before the shooting started.

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

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Fabrux
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I thought it was Tyrol pulled is hand out and Anders started yelling and that's when Doral freaked.

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B.J.
Space Cadet
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Sort of. Tyrol broke the connection, Anders and the hybrid started yelling, and the Cylons noticed the broken connection because they were monitoring the info transfer.
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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Jacob over at TelevisionWithoutPity on the finale:

quote:
So what's the problem? Few things, but big ones. Two things particularly, which line up with the odd conclusion in a particularly gruesome way. They both have to do with imagination, unfettered imagination, creation. The things you've created, and your responsibility toward them.

The show has been sketched out a year at a time, brilliantly; it is a living breathing thing, which lends it all the power it has. The problem, for me, is when that stops being true. When the plot isn't left alone to figure itself out, because an endpoint has been decided, and nobody feels like doing the work at the end of the season to tie all the threads together.

Fanboys, sometimes they hate the fact that stories work this way. They want it all stitched up ahead of time, with a plan on the books. I don't really understand why, but I know that there's not a show on television, or a novel ever written, that works that way. Things change, stories evolve and grow up, or the people creating them change, or lose interest. But fanboys, sometimes they are loud. So the showrunner has to say, "I know what the last thing is." The last image, or the last word of dialogue, or who's left standing. Maybe it's true, maybe it's a bluff.

It would be better if it were a bluff. Because you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the story tells itself, pat your back egregiously for the "artistic" details you've chucked in for no clear artistic reason, while also reassuring the fans -- whose opinions don't really matter anyway, because all you owe them is a story, including me, which is why I feel comfortable writing about this -- that there's an endpoint, a reason for it all, a final mystery. That all will be revealed.

Trust the story, and it will be. I think what I reacted so violently to, this finale and the last one, was the exceedingly inorganic, forced nature of the revelations, at the last second. Not organically developing out of the story told over the preceding nineteen episodes, and the threads of deeper meaning and juxtaposition that they afford, but a determined weeding out of tools and images that didn't fit the finale, when it was time to write the finale. That's distinctly irreverent, toward the material, toward the story itself, and to your writers. I think what happened here was less a issue of forethought and planning, and more a loss of nutsack at a crucial moment. A dedication to reaching ideas long plotted out, working against the grain of the story itself, to arrive at treasured endpoints that no longer signify.

Not that the finale wasn't intuitively written. Which is the second issue, because while it's a fine story, it turns against the preceding flow of the narrative in some pretty stark ways that, assembled, seem pretty revealing.

Let's start with Tory, not because I love her so much or anything, because what is there to love beyond the gifted Rekha Sharma? Not a lot. She was the mystery ingredient in the Final Four, the "most exciting" open-ended character, who in the end got the least interesting, most cardboard-villainous story of all. Thinking back to the balance of the Final Five, above, let's think about her for a second. Tory Foster is not Slytherin, she's Ravenclaw -- Ellen's Slytherin -- Tory is Air, Mind, the Invisible Girl, Thinking, taunted and haunted by dark emotions she can't see directly or ever explain, shooting out dark roots into Intuition and Sensation in order to stabilize herself against these shadow emotions and fears. (Compare Buffy's Willow Rosenberg, for an easy example.) The Final Five have lost their Thinker; it's no surprise that soon after, they give up even the touchstone of transcendence, shooting Sam into the sun as an artifact of technology, and become the Final Three.

What's troubling is that these Final Three, eventually, will agree that this is okay, even appropriate. Laudable, even. The show claps Galen on the back for severing the group's ties with the infinite, breaking a peace accord through murder, and eventually damning all but three Cylon models to death. Which, whatever, that's fine.

Only at the same time, Lee is warning us about our science outstripping our souls. Just after sending Simon the doctor and Cavil the atheist genius into a black hole, and a little while before the Smartest Man in the Twelve Colonies decides to become a farmer. Because courage, not intelligence, is what earns you love, and the right to exist. And right about this time the Fleet is giving up all intellectual progress they've ever made, and lying down in the grass and praising themselves for it, because technology and intellect and progress and mental strength are not "the best part of ourselves," any more than Tory Foster deserved to live. Human progress is typified in the glorious decadence of Caprica City, where if they're not fucking they're puking on themselves: "Commercialism, decadence, technology run amok" are inscribed as natural human endpoints, and the Hybrid and Lee agree, at different points, that cities and civilization are the root cause of all evil. And even though I personally found the characters' resolutions -- yes, including Kara's, and the angels' -- completely satisfying, that can go on the list too. The story steps up to the brink spiritually on at least three fronts, and then tosses up its hands, saying those lynchpins of the series no longer signify. Not for the lack of answers, but for suggesting that the questions themselves aren't worth asking.

I submit to you that coincidental or not -- and that's a pretty long list, to be a coincidence -- this is not only offensive and misguided, but vile. You have to look in the darkest, sweatiest ugliest places to find God, and the story here tells us that you're better off just pretending those places don't exist. Wrap your hands around the shadow's throat, or your enemy's throat, or around the blow-up dolls that Cylons are after all, and submerge the holiest part of yourself in forced amnesia and bitter denial, tell yourself that development forward leads inexorably to bisexual strip clubs and casual intercourse outside the bonds of marriage, and killer robots? All the cool kids are going agrarian? That's an old man's game, afraid and lost and tired, and the show is worthy of better than that.

Human development on the individual level is self-organizing: toward strength, wholeness and transformation. That's what a soul is: the natural desire to cross the line from here to there, to move and to progress. If not for a higher purpose, then at the least from of curiosity. Everything that rises, every single thing, must converge. I haven't seen a story this... hateful, this reductive and frightened and shrinking, in a really long time.

Why on Earth should anyone, anywhere, ever retrograde? If you don't like the thesis, generate the antithesis and pull it together with your hands: don't wipe the board. I don't think I've been more grossed out by any statement of this show's characters than the order not to "underestimate the desire for a clean slate." Anyone who honestly wants a clean slate wants to die. The question is, "When Will the Work Be Done?" And the only answer is: Never. You don't get to lay down your burdens, the rough spots are all you ever had. That's called life, and it's just as sweet and just as brutal as the angels, and the Gods. You can't tear pages out of your history. That's as weak as declaring bankruptcy, and morally reprehensible. It is profane.

You can't total out a human soul, can't ask for a factory recall, can't stalk your inner Tory and choke her to death, because she's not going anywhere. That just gives her more power over you, and you become uglier for it. You learn from her, you integrate, and you grow. Anything else is a warp in the design that you cause, out of your own cowardice, and laziness.

The future is always better than the past. Even Voltaire knew that, and he invented this trite shtick. If you can't believe that -- if you fear the future you're creating, for yourself -- you're done. Because there's no point: end it today, or stop bitching and apply yourself to making it better, because essentially the implication is that nobody knows how to save the world, but you, and nobody but yours will ever figure it out. That is dead. That is death.

I can't get around it, and I can't get past it. This is all me talking, I don't know anything about the people that brought this story to life, not really. And it's just an hour, or half an hour, out of something I will always love. It's not a dealbreaker. I'm already signed to do Caprica and The Plan for TWoP, because I do believe in this story. I love it. I love for its ambition, and its strength, and its excellence, and its hope. I love the people who have worked so hard to create something so beautiful, that has informed so much of my life for so many years. This is not a write-off. This is a personal problem with particular and personal conclusions that pushed personal buttons.

If any of the retrogressive themes in this episode were present, or even foreshadowed, in any other episode of the series, it would be lessened as a whole. But as the finale to a story, it's cool shit that doesn't mean much, other than telling us a lot about the mindset and the environment -- a given time, a given location -- in which it was produced. But no matter how hopeless it seems at this point in the story, the fact remains: We start every week in prayer: for more light, more wisdom, more strength. That will never change. Keep rising.



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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Quite an erudite chap, often excessively so (but his analysis of the Sopranos' ending is one of the best things I've ever read).. I don't agree with everything he says, but I think he encapsulates quite well the problems I (and many others) have with the back-to-nature ending.

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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Lee, I have to concur. You also can't tell me that out of some 50,000 plus people there were not a few who brought along a 'little something' of their technological comforts that would have impacted humanity.

I could SOOOooo see Baltar settling in the Nile valley region and changing his name to Ra. [Wink]

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Reverend
Based on a true story...
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I'm sure some artefacts and technical knowledge would have survived. Ever heard of the Baghdad battery? Plus of course there are those old Hindu myths about flying machines, wars in the sky, not to mention the various myths around the world (particularly in South America) of ancient teachers that gave humans language, agriculture etc.

Still, 150,000 years is a long time in human cultural terms and I doubt anything specific would still be around much longer after the ice age.
Which brings up a point; I don't think Galen could have gone to what's now Scotland since IIRC at that point the landbridge was still intact and we were still a part of mainland europe, not an island.

I do wonder though what they did with all the Raptors, Vipers and shuttles? It's not as if they could just leave them in the open or blow them up, as if I recall correctly they had radioactive power cores. Probably set them on autopilot to ditch in the deepest ocean trench available.

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Johnny
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According to Mojo there was a scene where they did indeed line up all the raptors and blow them up, but it was either cut, or wasn't filmed at all. Maybe they would have removed any dangerous materials first.

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Jason Abbadon
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quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
[QUOTE]I'm not quite sure I understand why so many people don't get what Starbuck was, because I got it immediately, at least IMHO. She isn't an angel. She's a Christ figure.

Jesus Christ was born, found out that his father was much more that what he thought, realized he had a destiny, had the 12 apostles follow him, died, was resurrected, and ascended to Heaven after fulfilling his destiny. Kara Thrace was born, realized she had a destiny, died, was resurrected, found out that her father was much more than what she thought, led the survivors of the 12 colonies to their new home, and ascended to (fill in the blank) after fulfilling her destiny. The sequence isn't the same, but the parallels are certainly there.(BTW, I was brought up Catholic, but I'm now an atheist)

Okay, I've read this whole thread trying to see if there's something that says "I should give this series a third chance" but that quote really decides it for me.

Holy shit am I glad I skipped this series.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Dukhat
Hater of Stock Footage
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Jason,

If you're using my quote to imply that I didn't like the series or the finale, then you've taken what I said out of context. And if you want to skip the series, fine. But it's really your loss.

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"A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop

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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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quote:
Why on Earth should anyone, anywhere, ever retrograde? If you don't like the thesis, generate the antithesis and pull it together with your hands: don't wipe the board.
Excellently put.
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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Jacob's use of the phrase "lay down your burdens" got me thinking about that partocular episode. Then, the humans, weary of running, found a planet to settle on; but a year later it had all gone pear-shaped and then the Cylons arrived an occupied them. And, second time round, they do the same thing but decide that what'll make it work this time is not to build a city, and have ships parked nearby or in orbit? Hmm.

It also occurs to me: we don;'t really know how completely "back to basics" they were planning to go. All we saw were people being loaded onto Raptors for dispersion. We don't know how much stuff was really unloaded, for all Apollo's poetic "nothing but the clothes on their backs" idea, these are civilised people who probably haven't been through extreme survival training. Although the destruction of the fleet implies a desire to stop running, why destroy the Raptors deliberately? We know they were ultimately destroyed or fell apart and weren't replaced because we know that eventually what are now "our ancestors" descended into barbarism. So I don't believe in the choice they made from a character-based point of view, and from hindsight as well.

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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And something else that I was just reading that seemed germane:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2009/mar/27/climate-change-carbon-emissions

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Reverend
Based on a true story...
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Considering that the alternative was building cities, being fruitful and imposing civilisation on the natives I think they made the right choice.
Just look at a history book to see what usually happens in those situations. THAT is what I'd call barbarism.

As for the colonials not used to extreme survival; they've all survived a holocaust, cylon occupation and four years of starvation, water rationing, cramped, possibly unhygienic conditions and a purely barter based economy. I think they can handle living in largish groups in the wilderness.

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
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It did leave open a few possibilities for shows, a new Atlantis being one of them.

Disposing of the small craft wouldn't be an issue, fly them up and land people in small groups, this way you might end up with one ship on the ground.
Since only one person needs to make the final trip down that person can fly a Viper down, pick a nice spot on a coast to eject, and let the Viper fly on till it crashes and sinks. A few hundred years and it's gone.

Looking at the human timeline I would have had the series end about 70,000 years ago, when speech developed. Since the Doc said the DNA matched anyway, they did have to make it look like Hera was Mitochondrial Mom.

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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