posted
Actually, that might be fun, after all. The people I played Civ II with all wanted to get straight to the combat, which isn't as interesting in that game as political manipulation could be.
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
European (and here I'm speaking Western European, as the solution to the Eastern question is: NO MONEY! but I'll get to that in a moment) militaries are not "crap" or bad or stupid or awful.
Or at least they weren't when organized.
For your edification, the proposed Ultimate Battle Strategy of NATO, circa Cold War:
Problem: Soviet tanks and infantry are rolling west from places like Germany and Czechoslovakia. They are ruthless, great in number, and backed up by a sizable nuclear arsenal.
Solution: Here is everything a Western European military needs to do: Slow down the Russians until the Americans arrive in force. The European members of NATO had absolutely no need for force projection, or global rapid response, or navies. They needed to travel a few hundred miles and stand in front of the largest tank push ever.
Had the Soviets ever invaded, I suspect these armies that now look so antiquated would have done exactly what they were supposed to do.
The problem now is, no Soviets. No real threat of military invasion. And so you've got nations with armies that are wonderful at fighting Iron Joe and his eleventy billion tanks as they roll through their backyard. But nobody needs that capacity anymore.
The European Union is well aware of this.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Yes, the Chinese should be quite noticable advancing all that way...
A place the Soviet Bloc was to pour through was the Fulda Gap, then protected by the 3rd Armored Div, and an ACR, 11th I think, plus the German units...
Sol has the plan down, even to the point where NATO forces were to be pushed all the way back to Portugal before a full counter offensive could get underway....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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Well, I suppose crap was a bit harsh; ours (UK) are quite good (easily best trained in the world but appalingly equipped- see recent problems w/ SA80, Challenger 2 and Apache- problem is mainly lack of funds); the French really are pretty awful; the Germans are OK but generally people are a bit uncertain about using them (for obvious reasons); the Dutch and Norwegians are alright. Most of the rest are so-so and most are underfunded. The US armed forces aren't exactly fantastic either BTW, but they make up for that with numbers and technology. It was estimated that Western armed forces (Including American) could have held off a Soviet invasion for 72 hours (on a weekday- all except for UK and US went home for the weekends).
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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As was the Irish Pub in Saxenhausen(sp?), on the second floor balcony... Till they put up that dang 8 foot wall, blocking the view of the women below... Then I hung out by the dart board by the door...
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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My reading is that First is defining the American military as "good" and European militaries as "crap" based on the very fact that America's strategery of force-projection is so much cooler and kickassier than actually defending one's own dirt.
Look, nobody is in the business of force projection in the same way as the Americans. What is it, 11 carrier battle groups? If you're going to wait until France drops a cool couple of hundred billion so they can have even half that kind of projection capacity before upgrading them from "crap" to "satisfactory," I think it's time to get a new dictionary.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Not to mention, some nations might not actually want to spend so much money, just to build up such a military.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Or they could do like the US has, downsize since the threat of the Soviet Bloc is gone...
The higher in technology the US military gets the easier it will be for low tech to waste us in a war of attrition. Vietnam and Afghanistan are the two prime examples of this.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
And of course the ultimate goal, according to Rumsfeld's wonky space war report, is to just drop hammers on offending nations/NGOs from high earth orbit. Fat chance defending against that with punji sticks and Stingers.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The EU is going to have it's own military. ONe that won't answer to NATO. And it's not going to be small, either. 60,000 men on rotation from various powers, with the totality of all MEP nations armies as accessible reserve, and with a 2,500 mile radius from EU borders being considered open territory to use that force in, as per the Treaty of Rome.
So, yeah, they're not worried about the Soviets anymore. But they're not throwing away their armies either.
Registered: Jan 2001
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Vietnam was lost as much because the US military was caught in a maelstrom of red tape from Washington as thick as any jungle.
And the boys in Afghanistan did have stuff like stinger missiles. Hardly just a bunch of spear chuckers.
The Soviets failed to take the area simply because the Americans were propping the rebels up with Rambo. The Americans failed in Vietnam because the Soviets were propping the Viet Cong up with Ivanisms. Such is the nature of Proxy Warfare, where nobody wins, and everybody loses.
Registered: Jan 2001
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Still, both sides had technology that vastly out did the opponets, MANPADS aside.
The US did suffer a few more things, home opinion and Washington's micro-management, that the Soviets didn't.
mmmm, 60,000 is small, 1 US Corps has that plus....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
One thing about the US armed forces; why do they all salute navy style rather than properly?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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