posted
Yes, you did. "The only way to live is to be with God, we can't be with God except through Christ, therefore we must accept Christ to live. Of course, I suppose it can also be punishment, for those who know the truth and consciously reject it."
This does not remove your choice. Just because leaving the hospital means that you die doesn't mean that you can't leave.
I submit, therefore, that the Christian God does not exist, especially not in the way presented in the Bible, because his nature as described is wholly inconsistent with his alleged actions.
Your analogy fails on the basis that while we are children in the sense of our knowledge, we are not children in the sense of not having the capacity to make good decisions.
Some god might exist, but that god would see no reason for me to go to hell (if hell existed) simply because I'm using my own capacity for reason and the provided facts.
Except that even God has limitations, remember. If God can not be with you except under very specific circumstances, and those circumstances do not occur, and the necessary result of not being with God is hell...
You're still stuck on the idea that hell is punishment for ALL who go there. For a lot of them, it's simply what happens if you can't be with God due to your own choices. God doesn't SEND people there, for the most part, it's simply the natural destination of everyone, short of a change in the necessary direction.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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God doesn't "send" people to hell? Okay, so if you see a blind man walk past you out into the street right in front of a speeding bus, and you consciously do not reach out and pull him back when you have plenty of time to, you may not have "sent" him to his death, but you're still responsible.
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posted
Who, exactly, are you trying to draw an analogy to?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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That's not hard. In his analogy, "you" = God.
quote:More like hospital free will. You can leave, but if you do, you're gonna die.
Staying in the hospital is no guarantee you're going to live... especially with thousands of deaths caused each year by medical mistakes. Are you SURE that's the analogy you want to keep?
Real love, TRUE love, does NOT require reciprocity.
Nor does it require everlasting damnation for love unrequited.
Any being that can condemn something it claims to love to Hell for eternity, for the meager crime of not loving it back, has no concept of what love is. Only selfishness.
(If anybody out there read the "Sandman" comic book, there's a good example of this, and of coming to terms with the truth of it, in the story thread concerning Morpheus's relationship with Nala)
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
Staying in the hospital is no guarantee you're going to live... especially with thousands of deaths caused each year by medical mistakes. Are you SURE that's the analogy you want to keep?
I never said it was a perfect analogy and you know it. You understand exactly what principle I'm trying to convey, Rob. Don't be an ass.
Any being that can condemn something it claims to love to Hell for eternity, for the meager crime of not loving it back, has no concept of what love is.
OK, one more time.
God does NOT send people to Hell (at least for the most part). We're all headed there ANYWAY. God gives us the option NOT to go, but whether we do or not is up to us.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: Just because leaving the hospital means that you die doesn't mean that you can't leave.
Well, wouldn't you want to hear the diagnosis from the doctor himself rather than some guy who feels smart because he stayed in a Holiday Inn last night? ("I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV.")
quote:Your analogy fails on the basis that while we are children in the sense of our knowledge, we are not children in the sense of not having the capacity to make good decisions.
Oh, this is really rich. I'm using my capacity for reason, and now you're saying that my analogy of your point of view is wrong for the reason that we can use our capacity for reason?
My argument is that as physical Human beings (assuming that Christianity is correct), we have no direct experience in Heavenly matters. We have no way to understand the concepts of God completely.
Or is there some other reason why all of your arguments to this point have been riddled with speculation, supposition, and extrapolation?
quote:Some god might exist, but that god would see no reason for me to go to hell (if hell existed) simply because I'm using my own capacity for reason and the provided facts.
Except that even God has limitations, remember. If God can not be with you except under very specific circumstances, and those circumstances do not occur, and the necessary result of not being with God is hell...
The very nature of God in Christian beliefs is that he has no limits. And so if he didn't want people to go to Hell, then they wouldn't. And if he wanted people to go to Hell, then he doesn't love us unconditionally.
quote:You're still stuck on the idea that hell is punishment for ALL who go there. For a lot of them, it's simply what happens if you can't be with God due to your own choices. God doesn't SEND people there, for the most part, it's simply the natural destination of everyone, short of a change in the necessary direction.
Oh, I know very well the assertion th at Hell is supposed to be nothing more than a lack of a posthumous relationship with God. But whether God "sends" us there or whether we simply end up there, the fact remains that God could do differently.
At the very least, if he gave us free will in order to make our decisions, he could provide enough credible and reliable information to make the right decision. Someone mentioned earlier the idea of Pascal's Wager. But how about the opposite idea? That God gave us free will and the power to reason, and I'm not seeing enough reason to choose to believe? I'm convinced that if there were indeed a god who loved us all unconditionally, he wouldn't be hung up on whether or not I'm dropping by at church each week if I'm living a good and moral life.
What I'm trying to say is, from what I've been taught by other Humans, I do not rule out the possibility that Christianity is true, and that God does indeed exist. But I also do not see sufficient reason to believe anymore. I question the veracity of the sources, the accuracy of the translations passed down over the many, many years. I believe that the very concept of god originates from a number of cultural beliefs developed back when people had no idea how to explain certain things that we can easily explain today. Therefore, while it's possible that there's a supreme being out there, that being does not exist in the literal way that theologians tell us.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
My argument is that as physical Human beings (assuming that Christianity is correct), we have no direct experience in Heavenly matters. We have no way to understand the concepts of God completely.
I would probably agree with that. What point do you try to make by arguing this?
The very nature of God in Christian beliefs is that he has no limits.
Which is exactly what I denied when this started. Pay attention, please.
At the very least, if he gave us free will in order to make our decisions, he could provide enough credible and reliable information to make the right decision.
And you believe that he hasn't?
I do not rule out the possibility that Christianity is true, and that God does indeed exist.
Therefore, while it's possible that there's a supreme being out there, that being does not exist in the literal way that theologians tell us.
These are contradictory statements. You believe that it's possible, but you don't. You're allowed NOT to have an opinion, you know. You aren't obligated to choose if you can't.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
In the final analysis, all this is moot. I have not seen any heavenly or divine manifestations, nor have I consciously heard the voice of God. I don't know if there's life after death or not. So... I'm going to do the best I can with the tools (physical and intellectual) I possess to make the world a better place before I leave it (whenever and however that might be).
I will not surrender my existence as a free-thinker and, as I cannot empirically test the existence or non-existence of God, I treat the literary artifacts that refer to God's -- any God's existence as allegorical until proved otherwise. And don't try to bombard me with more of your dogma-laden "proof". It's not testable, therefore it isn't proof -- it's opinion.
My biggest problem with any organized religion is the fact that they all require -- to some extent -- that you surrender your ability to reason for yourself and let someone else think for you... Whether that be someone who lived and died four thousand years ago and has had his words translated and re-translated and interpreted and re-interpreted dozens of times, or a Mullah who was ranting at you about your duty to Allah last Tuesday, it all thrives on ignorance, superstition, and fear.
I have a hard time talking to people who are so proud and fired up by their faith. On the one hand, I'm glad they have something that lights them up and brings joy to their lives... And on the other, I see it as an inability to confront the cosmos as it is such that they have to hide behind a comfortable notion that God is up there watching us and all we do and it's all part of a bigger plan...
*sigh* I guess it comes down to avoiding responsibility for one's life and turning it over to a concept that may or may not exist or the people who speak for Him/It... Responsibility for one's successes and triumphs as well as one's mistakes and crimes... "The Devil made me do it" or "God wanted me to succeed".
My rather heavy $.02...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: My argument is that as physical Human beings (assuming that Christianity is correct), we have no direct experience in Heavenly matters. We have no way to understand the concepts of God completely.
I would probably agree with that. What point do you try to make by arguing this?
quote:At the very least, if he gave us free will in order to make our decisions, he could provide enough credible and reliable information to make the right decision.
And you believe that he hasn't?
This goes back to my analogy of Humans as children in grade school. We have no idea of just what everything entails, aside from a few dusty old scrolls from thousands of years ago, and the teachings of an institution that has proven itself corrupt, self-serving, and even at times manipulative. I am saying that rather than old lore handed down from two thousand years ago, why not learn from the source, if it were true? I want more evidence.
And the reason I want more evidence is because as it stands, I view the Bible as a rallying cry for a persecuted culture -- Hebrews originally, and later the proto-Christians.
Which leads me into my next argument -- a rerun of "Who Watches the Watchers?" was just on this evening, conveniently. Those Mintakans had no way of explaining certain things that they saw, and so they assumed that there was some all-powerful being that controlled things. And when there was a freak thunderstorm cropping up, they assumed that that all-powerful being was angry with them, and so they decided to shoot Troi. It's based on superstitions and speculation about matters far beyond contemporary knowledge.
The Bible begins with the Book of Genesis. Perfectly logical -- because the prehistoric people wanted to learn about how their world was created. How did this world, and people and animals, and the Sun and the Moon, come to exist? They would have no understanding of cosmology and nuclear fusion creating stars and planets... or the concept of evolution... and so they figured that there was some god that started it all.
And if you take away the story of Genesis, then everything afterwards starts to unravel. What is the nature of Original Sin? Why are Humans considered innately evil because of this, and why, if Adam and Eve did not bite of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge? Why are Humans spread all across the Earth, with so many different languages and customs?
Without Original Sin, why was it necessary for Jesus Christ to come and save us? Why are Humans barred from entering Heaven because of the single choice of some maybe-mythical ancestor? Why would God present his message directly to Moses and Israel, and punish them when they went astray by not worshipping him, but sit on his proverbial hands and do nothing when the Catholic Church endorsed the Crusades in the Middle Ages?
Christianity's basically circular logic. If you break one link, the whole thing falls apart. And that's just what happened with me.
The currently accepted theory is that the Universe was created in the Big Bang. But just what caused the Big Bang? I haven't a clue... but that doesn't automatically mean that there was some god behind that creation -- there could be some kind of force beyond the universe that we have absolutely no concept of. At least, not yet.
quote:I do not rule out the possibility that Christianity is true, and that God does indeed exist.
Therefore, while it's possible that there's a supreme being out there, that being does not exist in the literal way that theologians tell us.
These are contradictory statements. You believe that it's possible, but you don't. You're allowed NOT to have an opinion, you know. You aren't obligated to choose if you can't.
No... I am saying that I believe that there is no God as any Human religion claims, but I accept the possibility that I'm wrong. I don't think I am, but I'm certainly not infallible.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
We have no idea of just what everything entails, aside from a few dusty old scrolls from thousands of years ago
Correction: we have the information ON those scrolls. You're trying to devalue that information by criticizing that which carries it, and you're not even doing a very good job of that.
and the teachings of an institution that has proven itself corrupt, self-serving, and even at times manipulative
Fine, you don't like the various religious institutions? Go by the dusty old scrolls. Just know that by denying the institution wholesale, you're simply giving yourself an out if you hear something you don't like. This Hebrew scholar shows you something about those scrolls that disproves your views? Well, he's a member of the church, and since a distantly related body did this bad thing nine centuries ago, he obviously can't be trusted.
I am saying that rather than old lore handed down from two thousand years ago, why not learn from the source, if it were true? I want more evidence.
"We have no evidence, Mr. Chekov. We simply have a theory that happens to fit the facts." Our theory just happens to fit the available facts better than any other presented.
I am saying that rather than old lore handed down from two thousand years ago, why not learn from the source, if it were true?
Again, you have to be able NOT to believe, or there's no point. There IS sufficient information to believe, or there wouldn't be a couple billion of us that do.
And if you take away the story of Genesis, then everything afterwards starts to unravel.
Agreed.
Christianity's basically circular logic. If you break one link, the whole thing falls apart. And that's just what happened with me.
I'm not sure what you see as qualifying as circular. Nor do I see what link you consider to be broken.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: Correction: we have the information ON those scrolls. You're trying to devalue that information by criticizing that which carries it, and you're not even doing a very good job of that.
Are you even reading my arguments? I went on to say that the origins of those dusty old scrolls is because primitive Humans originally wanted to explain how the world was created. So they came up with the story of Genesis, how The Lord created the world in seven days, and how Adam and Even doomed all of Humanity for the rest of eternity to the mark of Original Sin.
What I'm trying to say is that I give the Bible about as much factual credence as you would if I started publishing a web page that started proclaiming that the great god Krblazmo was coming soon, and that if we didn't all repent and start wearing underwear on our heads, we'd be condemned to ride the Man Train for eternity.
Or to put it in less sarcastic terms, I do not accept the Bible as a literal document and take it at face value. I have considered the cultural and historical background of the civilization that wrote the book, and I think that there is an alternate explanation.
quote:Fine, you don't like the various religious institutions? Go by the dusty old scrolls. Just know that by denying the institution wholesale, you're simply giving yourself an out if you hear something you don't like. This Hebrew scholar shows you something about those scrolls that disproves your views? Well, he's a member of the church, and since a distantly related body did this bad thing nine centuries ago, he obviously can't be trusted.
Oh, for goodness' sake! Read my argument -- I don't accept the Bible as proof at all!
quote:"We have no evidence, Mr. Chekov. We simply have a theory that happens to fit the facts." Our theory just happens to fit the available facts better than any other presented.
Says you. You've got no stronger a position than I do about this. I can't prove that there's NOT a god, but you can't prove that there IS a god under the current circumstances -- and from my point of view, if you need the reminder that I'm espousing my personal opinion here...
quote:Again, you have to be able NOT to believe, or there's no point. There IS sufficient information to believe, or there wouldn't be a couple billion of us that do.
A couple billion? Yeah, maybe, if you counted all the Christians twice. And a billion Muslims, and a billion East Asian religions, and...
Just because the majority believe something is true, doesn't mean that it really IS true. If that were the case, then the world would be flat and Columbus would've been some monster's afternoon snack.
quote:And if you take away the story of Genesis, then everything afterwards starts to unravel.
Agreed.
Then I submit to you a simple and straightforward question, Omega:
What is the reason for Original Sin? Why is every single Human being ever born considered tainted from the very second that he or she is conceived? (That's basically the tenet of Christian theology -- that Humanity is innately evil and must repent through God.)
(I'm assuming that you're not a Creationist here. If you are, then just say so and forget the whole thing.)
quote:Christianity's basically circular logic. If you break one link, the whole thing falls apart. And that's just what happened with me.
I'm not sure what you see as qualifying as circular. Nor do I see what link you consider to be broken.
The circular logic is that the Bible is divinely inspired, and the Bible is used to prove God's existence.
If the Bible is true, then the Christian God exists. If the Christian God exists, then the Bible is true.
Therefore, the two sides must have identical truth values. One cannot be true and the other false. They're either both true, or both false.
The link that is broken is the theory of Original Sin, which becomes the very reason why Jesus came down to Earth and saved Mankind -- along with most of the Book of Genesis besides. I notice you didn't comment on my reference to "Who Watches the Watchers?" in my last post...
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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quote:(I'm assuming that you're not a Creationist here. If you are, then just say so and forget the whole thing.)
He is. Of the pesky young Earth variety, in fact.
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: I never said it was a perfect analogy and you know it. You understand exactly what principle I'm trying to convey, Rob. Don't be an ass.
Actually, the analogy continues to be accurate with my additions. It's just that you're not aware of it because you're wearing blinkers.
quote: God does NOT send people to Hell (at least for the most part). We're all headed there ANYWAY. God gives us the option NOT to go, but whether we do or not is up to us.
However, Got set up the conditions by which we are all headed there anyway.
I used to do the same thing with Japanese beetles when I was a kid... dump a whole cupful into water, then pick out the ones I thought "deserved" to live (mostly by arbitrary conditions, like not clustering in a ball and clambering to the top, drowning their fellow insects, but trying to swim/climb out on their own).
But unlike your version of God, I don't deny that I'm the one who put the bugs in the water in the first place.
God set up the Eden Test.
God created fallible mankind with both the capacity to resist and the capacity to fail.
God created entities (Satan, Serpent, what have you), whose primary purpose seems to be the corruption of mankind.
God gave these entities unobstructed sway over the Earth and the minds of Men, while doing very little in the way of countering their actions. He did none of the innumerable things within his power to prevent man's fall.
Man was obeying God just fine on his own, without ANY outside influences, until God allowed the Serpent to enter Eden. Only then was man in danger, due to God's negligence in abandoning His creation to two rather dull beings who were not yet capable of comprehending the 'evil' of disobedience or the unforgivability of gullibility.
No, God set conditions up in such a way that Man's fall was practically guaranteed, and still has the unmitigated gall to make the rest of us, who had absolutely NOTHING to do with it, continue to pay for it, eons later.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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