quote:Originally posted by First of Two: I used to do the same thing with Japanese beetles when I was a kid... dump a whole cupful into water, then pick out the ones I thought "deserved" to live (mostly by arbitrary conditions, like not clustering in a ball and clambering to the top, drowning their fellow insects, but trying to swim/climb out on their own).
I bet everyone was just falling over themselves to invite you to birthday parties.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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I went on to say that the origins of those dusty old scrolls is because primitive Humans originally wanted to explain how the world was created.
Oh, I'm sorry, I was trying to ignore your unfounded opinions. If you'd like me to point out the flaws in them, i.e. that they're unfounded, I can do that, too.
I do not accept the Bible as a literal document and take it at face value. I have considered the cultural and historical background of the civilization that wrote the book, and I think that there is an alternate explanation.
Do tell.
I can't prove that there's NOT a god, but you can't prove that there IS a god under the current circumstances
The laws of physics contradict each other regarding the creation of the universe. There HAS to be a god, otherwise the universe could not exist at all, let alone in its present form. The only real question is the nature of said deity.
What is the reason for Original Sin? Why is every single Human being ever born considered tainted from the very second that he or she is conceived?
What I'm thinking is that Adam and Eve made that choice for everyone, much like that article that was posted here recently about two women purposefully choosing to have a deaf child. That choice and the ensuing curse may have irrevocably affected the basic structure of the human mind, on a genetic level.
Or it's possible that original sin isn't correct at all, and that we all just screw up really really early. Whichever.
The circular logic is that the Bible is divinely inspired, and the Bible is used to prove God's existence.
I don't belive I argued that.
I notice you didn't comment on my reference to "Who Watches the Watchers?" in my last post...
Of course I didn't. It neither supports nor defeats any argument either of us is making. It's simply an extraneous analogy to your theory.
God set up the Eden Test.
Yup.
God created fallible mankind with both the capacity to resist and the capacity to fail.
Yup.
God created entities (Satan, Serpent, what have you), whose primary purpose seems to be the corruption of mankind.
Nope. They chose to corrupt mankind, too. It wasn't God's intent when they were created. And I would point out that those entities sinned WITHOUT the tree. Why the tree when it wasn't actually necessary to test their virtue, I don't know. Much like wiping out entire cities, presumably there's a reason to do it that way rather than another.
God gave these entities unobstructed sway over the Earth and the minds of Men, while doing very little in the way of countering their actions.
You make it sound like we're all demon-possessed, or something.
He did none of the innumerable things within his power to prevent man's fall.
Again with the free will.
Man was obeying God just fine on his own, without ANY outside influences, until God allowed the Serpent to enter Eden.
Again, I would point out that sin is possible without outside influence, as evidenced by Satan himself.
Only then was man in danger
Which I deny.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: Oh, I'm sorry, I was trying to ignore your unfounded opinions. If you'd like me to point out the flaws in them, i.e. that they're unfounded, I can do that, too.
Same to you, buddy. Same to you. Are you interested in a discussion, or shall we ignore each other?
quote:The laws of physics contradict each other regarding the creation of the universe. There HAS to be a god, otherwise the universe could not exist at all, let alone in its present form. The only real question is the nature of said deity.
I'm sorry, what was it you just said about an unfounded opinion?
A cave man stands on a hill the whole day, and watches the sun move from one side of his field of view to the opposite side. He has no idea what makes the sun shine, or cause it to change its location. So he makes up a story about a chariot of fire that drags the sun across the sky -- thus providing the origins of the Greek god Apollo.
quote:What I'm thinking is that Adam and Eve made that choice for everyone, much like that article that was posted here recently about two women purposefully choosing to have a deaf child. That choice and the ensuing curse may have irrevocably affected the basic structure of the human mind, on a genetic level.
So is that free will or predestination? And how can your God claim to love me unconditionally when I've done nothing wrong at birth, and yet I'm still considered unworthy?
quote:Or it's possible that original sin isn't correct at all, and that we all just screw up really really early. Whichever.
Oh yeah -- I must've gurgled out a few curses at my mother when I was three hours old...
quote:The circular logic is that the Bible is divinely inspired, and the Bible is used to prove God's existence.
I don't belive I argued that.
It's the very nature of your argument -- you're claiming that your Christian god exists and that the Bible is truth. It doesn't matter if you said it in so many words, it's still the meaning behind your argument.
quote:I notice you didn't comment on my reference to "Who Watches the Watchers?" in my last post...
Of course I didn't. It neither supports nor defeats any argument either of us is making. It's simply an extraneous analogy to your theory.
Then I suppose I might as well stop now. I go on the offensive by offering my point of view and an explanation for the origins of the Bible (as a series of cultural stories that developed without any real god), and you just ignore it as an "extraneous analogy."
If you'd like to have a real discussion, I'll be perfectly happy to continue. Despite the apparent hard tone my posts have had here recently, I'm probably better classified as agnostic than pure atheist, although my thoughts right now are tending towards atheism. This discussion has given me some things to think about -- but when I try to make an argument to counter your opinions, you brush it off rather than answer it. That annoys the hell out of me. You may feel secure in your opinion -- and I applaud you for your faith. But if you're going to try to convince me, you'd better use something more intelligent than calling my opinions "unfounded."
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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"The laws of physics contradict each other regarding the creation of the universe."
I'm eager to hear your arguments for this unfounded creationist-propagated hogwash.
Often those who are mis- or uninformed, ignorant, and uneducated are wonted to make the strongest claims. So, if you'd care to back yours up...
"There HAS to be a god, otherwise the universe could not exist at all, let alone in its present form."
Until you can convince me that you have a firm grasp of the finer points of quantum mechanics, string/m-theory and general relativity, and that you are able to accurately refute or invalidate all of them, this is nothing more than yet another Opinion-Presented-As-Fact.
"The only real question is the nature of said deity."
By your own admittance, said nature is beyond your ability to comprehend. Thus shrouding in doubt everything your beliefs are based on.
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Damn. I think I accidently pressed tab and the carried on typing. And pressed enter. Several times. V. sorry.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote:A couple billion? Yeah, maybe, if you counted all the Christians twice. And a billion Muslims, and a billion East Asian religions, and...
From The Economist:
quote:Counting believers is difficult. The world's Christian churches claimed some 2 billion adherants in 2000, up from 1.2 billion in 1970, which is roughly in line with population growth, but still leaves Christianity a larger faith than Islam.
Other facts from the same article: 20% of western Europeans go regularly to church, compered to 14% of Eastern Europeans and 47% of Americans. The figure for Americans is those who go at least once a week. Only 2% of Americans are atheists. More than 60% of the US population is a member of a christian Church.
On the other hand...
quote:Extracts from a spoof letter... to Laura Schlessinger, a (Jewish) fundamentalist broadcaster.
...When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle... I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly ststes it to be an abomination. End of debate. i do need some advice from you, howevert, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them. When I burn a bull on the alter as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? Most of my male friens=ds get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? Lev. 25:44 ststes that I may possess slaves...provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, not Canadians. can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote: Extracts from a spoof letter... to Laura Schlessinger, a (Jewish) fundamentalist broadcaster.
I can't even imagine how this could be viewed as nearly approaching accurate. Annoying blowhard, sure. But the closest thing to a Jewish fundamentalist movement is Hasidism, and I will bet you ten hundred billion zillion dollars that "Dr." Laura is not a Hasidic Jew.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Um... The closest thing to a Jewish fundamentalist movement is Zionism -- you know, the guys currently running things in Israel and the reason I've been watching that part of the world so nervously lately...?
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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