quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: Bollocks.
It's the most un-enforcible law ever. If smokers wish to smoke outside, they will, and they should. Who's gunna stop them? This is a violation of rights, surely.
Sorry, but, how's it bollocks? In many places it's illegal to drink out in public. How's that different? Or laws against going out in public naked?
I don't think there was anything in the oh so amazing constition about smoking. Thereby your rights are determinded by current law. And if a law is passed banning smoking in public, then you don't have a right to smoke in public.
quote:If this law is to be passed, then all foreign airborn pollutants should be banned - factory smoke for example, car fumes.
In the same way that because marijuana is illegal, all drugs of any sort should be made illegal? Factory smoke is a by product of industry. Car fumes are a by product of people driving cars. Smoking is a side product of someone trying to give themselves cancer. There's a difference.
quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: If that law was passed where I live I would leave the friggin country. I'm serious. It would be a violation of rights, indicative of a dictatorship. What law would be next? CapMike is correct, this would be quite frightening.
What? More of a dictatorship than the banning of drinking in public? Or the fact that your postman might be spying on you?
Also, really, are you serious? Cause if so, I'll quite happily have a bet of seven thousand pounds that if the law passes, you'll still be living in the US 1 year later.
(As an aside, I should point out that I may or may not agree with this law. But silly shouting about some sort of imagined rights is plainly silly.)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You must understand that smoking isn't obnoxious, nor drinking, it is in the unfortunate event that someone who is irresponsible or indiscrete, in such an event, that is.
This means that those that aren't irresponsible, who are indiscrete with it, who are penalised. That is what I'm against.
Also, I do not live in the US, but in the UK. Such laws as bans on smoking and drinking in public are generally frowned upon as being an act of depiriving us of our civil liberties. And don't pull the contitution card on me, I'm not bound by it.
And yes. I will see that bet. If such an insane law came to my shores, then I will smoke, happily, until I get a criminal record, and then bye bye, I will leave. I refuse to live under such oppression. But that won't happen. A), because our government have neither the nerve, pettiness, or public support to impose such a law, and B), the police would not waste a minute of their precious time apprehending people who happen to be smoking in public. If they did, there would be a civil war, I tell you!
Ban handguns for f*** sake. Spend some time thinking over that issue why don't you.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
As it stands around here, the only opposition to the bylaw is really smokers and owners of bars who get a lot of business from smokers...
I myself won't visit bars for the main reason that they're just too smoky. Most of the patrons in the bar smoke and it just hangs in the air and doesn't go anywhere. Most of the places around here have an airlock at the front entrance so you can wipe your feet and not let cold air in in the winter, so the smoke doesn't even get a chance to go outside.
Another thing that may decide to pass the bylaw is how much business the newest bar in the city gets. It's a non-smoking facility from the get-go. Now that bar I might go to.
-------------------- I haul cardboard and cardboard accessories
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: You must understand that smoking isn't obnoxious, nor drinking, it is in the unfortunate event that someone who is irresponsible or indiscrete, in such an event, that is.
Except, well, it is. Have you ever been at the bus stop next to someone who is smoking? Or walking down the street? You get a lungful of obnoxion right there.
quote:Also, I do not live in the US, but in the UK. Such laws as bans on smoking and drinking in public are generally frowned upon as being an act of depiriving us of our civil liberties. And don't pull the contitution card on me, I'm not bound by it.
Actually, most people I know of don't mind the anti drinking in public rule (except outside of pubs and stuff, obviously). The smoking is a bit more varied, usually depending on whether the person as asthma or not.
And, er, I'm also in the UK.
quote:And yes. I will see that bet. If such an insane law came to my shores, then I will smoke, happily, until I get a criminal record, and then bye bye, I will leave. I refuse to live under such oppression. But that won't happen. A), because our government have neither the nerve, pettiness, or public support to impose such a law, and B), the police would not waste a minute of their precious time apprehending people who happen to be smoking in public. If they did, there would be a civil war, I tell you!
In the same way that there was when lots of cities banned drinking on the streets?
Also, I have memories of several people swearing blind that they'd leave the country if Labour ever got back into power. Strangely, 5 years later, they still seem to be here.
quote:Ban handguns for f*** sake. Spend some time thinking over that issue why don't you.
Fuck. Although shouldn't that be f***'*? And, er, I'm still British. So, y'know, calm down.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: [QB] You must understand that smoking isn't obnoxious, nor drinking, it is in the unfortunate event that someone who is irresponsible or indiscrete, in such an event, that is.
No? Tell me, if someone parked a huge truck next to you and left it running, and the exhaust was just wafting around... wouldn't you be pissed off and want them to stop?
Smoking is even worse, for that matter -- because it's something people choose to do for whatever idiotic reason. If they wanted to try some other method of getting their nicotine fix, I certainly wouldn't approve of it, but at least I wouldn't be forced to share it with them.
quote:This means that those that aren't irresponsible, who are indiscrete with it, who are penalised. That is what I'm against.
The whole problem with smoking anywhere in public is that it IS irresponsible, it IS indiscrete, and it IS offensive to others.
Also, have you ever heard of the Eighteenth Amendment of the US Constitution? It never worked that well and was certainly a bit of an overreaction in some respects (not to mention was eventually repealed by the 21st Amendment), but it's a historical precedent in the US.
The point is that secondhand smoke is offensive and a condition that is inflicted on someone by others. I don't care if they blow it directly at my face or simply stand upwind from to me -- they're still causing me harm.
As for your analogy of truck exhaust, that's not completely applicable because it's a byproduct of machinery for various operations. Certainly it's not the most desirable situation, and I would not object to any laws encouraging cleaner systems -- but there's no reason in that to forbid any ban on public smoking. They're two wholly separate situations.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Ten years ago I moved from Minnesota, where indoor antismoking laws are very strict because of the cold weather, to Japan, a veritable smoker's paradise. I was used to being able to go an entire day without having to smell smoke and get the stink in my hair and clothing. But in Japan, smokers light up everywhere: in hospitals, restaurants, train platforms etc. You can't escape the smell. Even 40% of doctors smoke. The streets are littered with butts and phlegm hacked up by smokers. While walking down the street you run the risk of getting burned by cigarettes waved around by oblivious smokers (this has happened to me several times). However, the adult male smoking rate has finally fallen below 50% and we are starting to see more nonsmoking areas in restaurants and offices. One area of Tokyo has even instituted nonsmoking zones in the streets. City employees (in teams to resist the wrath of smokers) will force you to pay a 2000 yen (16 dollar) fine on the spot if they catch you smoking in a outdoor nonsmoking area.
-------------------- When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Wow, a bit more of a reaction than I had anticipated....
By banning my smokes you are, indeed, dictating what I can and can not do in my own home, and even though I don't smoke marijuana, I feel the same about that.
Banning it because it is an unhealthy irritant is beyond comprehension to me, in that if you start there where do you draw the line, the cigarettes is it, why there, when the diesel is equally as bad, alcohol kills far more people on roadways than cigarettes. Now we need to re-ban that also. Those dang irritating Canadian chemical factories across the St. Clair River from me need to be shut down. All autos need to be banned also.
The autos and the factories do invade my home with there smells and dust, on a constant basis, so that is where I will draw the line, when all things that spill forth noxious, obnoxious, and, or toxic fumes is included in your ban.
Oh, yeah, say good bye to the majority of the electric, since a lot of that still comes from that clean air producing coal....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Relatively strict anti-smoking laws have also come to effect in the Nordic countries. Indoor public places in Finland are theoretically smoke-free, while private indoor locations need not be. The major question is balconies...
In theory, a balcony of a flat is both "indoors" and "private", although cigarette smoke isn't literate on such definitions. In practice, there have been cases where balcony smokers have been smoked out of their flats, by making their lives hell by any means necessary and (by some interpretation at least) legal. Given the current atmosphere, I wouldn't wonder if a total smoking ban came to effect in the near future.
Public drinking outdoors was banned here in Finland only very recently, and the ban isn't really enforced during the major boozing holidays yet. It will probably be much, much harder to get that to work than it would be to ban all public smoking.
posted
I think that people should be able to smoke (tobacco or pot or anything they want) if they don't bother other people. So, smoke as much as you want at home. Just don't force me to smell your smoke or get your smoke on me by polluting indoor and outdoor public spaces.
Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Except, well, it is. Have you ever been at the bus stop next to someone who is smoking? Or walking down the street? You get a lungful of obnoxion right there.
Yes, I have, and in some instances it can be unpleasant if its particualy overwhelming, I agree. But they have every right to smoke there, it's outside in the free air, not in my front room. If they were to cough, or sneeze near me, it's just as obnoxious. And like smoking, they can't help it. Believe me, please.
It is an addiction that is amazingly difficult to kick. I started smoking 17 years ago. Shit, it frightens me saying it like that, but yes, 17 years, and I am neither pleased, happy, or proud of that fact. I started, and I cannot stop. I'm hooked. It was own dumbass fault as a teenager. But it is just like being hooked to anything else in this world that is pleasant and satisfying, yet bad for you.
quote:Actually, most people I know of don't mind the anti drinking in public rule (except outside of pubs and stuff, obviously). The smoking is a bit more varied, usually depending on whether the person as asthma or not.
And, er, I'm also in the UK.
Yeh, I thought were a Brit, PsyLiam. But do I support public drinking? Only for youths, that hang around outside pubs and clubs and supermarkets late at night. They should be in bed, particularly on school nights! We get a lot of late night loiterers round here, and they get right on my nerves. Where are their parents!
But again, this quite sensisble law has penalised it for everyone else. I quite enjoyed sitting on the grass in the Italian gardens near the seafront in summer, sipping a can of beer. Now I can't, but I guess a sacrifice the case of common civil order must be made for the good of the majority.
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quote:No? Tell me, if someone parked a huge truck next to you and left it running, and the exhaust was just wafting around... wouldn't you be pissed off and want them to stop?
First off, no. It is a parked vehicle, making a delivery perhaps. It has to be there, it has a right to be there. If it pisses me off, guess what, I move away. Why should the truck leave? I don't own the pavement on which I stand.
But in another sense, yes, I would be annoyed, and it precisely proves my original point. It would the driver that is being irresponsible in this scenario, not the truck. So one can't really condemn, or ban all truck drivers simply because of this one person's indiscretion.
quote:The whole problem with smoking anywhere in public is that it IS irresponsible, it IS indiscrete, and it IS offensive to others.
So are cellphones, yet we all carry them. So is sneezing, or coughing, or cycling on the pavements (sidewalks), and a ton of other stuff. Yes, life can be a pain in the ass.
But like I said, smoking, I can't help it. I will not do it inside, if someone is against it. But outside, in a free domain, I will continue to excercise my rights to smoke if I wish. If someone doesn't like it, then they can bother to move a few feet away, or stand upwind.
quote:Also, have you ever heard of the Eighteenth Amendment of the US Constitution?
No, sorry I haven't.
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To conclude, I agree with Ritten wholeheartedly. Non-smokers may find cigarettes obnoxious, smokers do not. Non car-drivers, pedestrians, find cars obnoxious and irritating, it's a similar thing. Both are necessary and desirable to the user. Both are annoying and a pain in the ass to non-user. Both can harm you, even kill you, etc etc. Life is full of these things. But they cannot be eliminated. Cars are necessary, obviously. But so is tobacco - to those that use it. If you were a smoker, you would understand this.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
The Eighteenth Amendment was the Prohibition (of alcohol). It lasted all of about 15 years. But it's still a legal precedent (though of mixed indications).
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
I don't smoke, but I feel strongly that if your in a crowded public place, then you should not smoke.
I'm an ahsmatic (I can never spell that) and I've had a couple attacks come on from people smoking. I don't bitch at them, I just walk a few meters away. ( and most realize that it's bothering me and snuff it out as a courtesy)
I like to smoke a cigar every so often. And cigar smoke smells alot better than second hand I'll tell ya. Too bad it seems to be a little more irritating if you breath it in after, so I smoke when I'm alone, and theres a good wind...
Anyways. I feel that if someone wants to smoke that's thier decision, but they should show some common courtesy.
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
posted
Ah, Prohibition, yes, I know of prohibition well enough. Each 'Amendment' as they stand in your Constition I couldn't name or list - being not American, but British, and surely you forgive me not knowing them. But I think Prohibition, as a precendant is riduclous - a violation of basic freedom, and thankfully this has gone the way of the witch-hunt. As it ought to.
If a ban on smoking in public was passed today, I would, heart on my sleeve, defy it, just like if Prohibition existed, I would immediately go to the first available speakeasy. 'Land of the free' it should be - with a limit. Both these, as a statute law, would go beyond it.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
Prohibition failed like an Arianne rocket, but I'm not sure I see why a ban on something like alcohol or tobacco is uniquely worthy of your civil unrest. I mean, not that I'm saying it is or isn't. Just that it seems like it isn't the most grevious threat to liberty imaginable. Maybe not even in the top ten, you know?
Registered: Mar 1999
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