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Author Topic: Prisoner Abuse
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Update.

quote:
washingtonpost.com
Another Thunderbolt from Wilkerson

By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, November 4, 2005; 12:45 PM

Another shocking accusation by former administration insider Lawrence Wilkerson appears to be going under the media radar today.

On NPR yesterday, the former chief of staff to the secretary of state said that he had uncovered a "visible audit trail" tracing the practice of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers directly back to Vice President Cheney's office.

Here's the audio of Wilkerson's interview with Steve Inskeep. The transcript is not publicly available, but here are the relevant excerpts:

"INSKEEP: While in the government, he says he was assigned to gather documents. He traced just how Americans came to be accused of abusing prisoners. In 2002, a presidential memo had ordered that detainees be treated in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions that forbid torture. Wilkerson says the vice president's office pushed for a more expansive policy.

"Mr. WILKERSON: What happened was that the secretary of Defense, under the cover of the vice president's office, began to create an environment -- and this started from the very beginning when David Addington, the vice president's lawyer, was a staunch advocate of allowing the president in his capacity as commander in chief to deviate from the Geneva Conventions. Regardless of the president having put out this memo, they began to authorize procedures within the armed forces that led to, in my view, what we've seen.

"INSKEEP: We have to get more detail about that because the military will say, the Pentagon will say they've investigated this repeatedly and that all the investigations have found that the abuses were committed by a relatively small number of people at relatively low levels. What hard evidence takes those abuses up the chain of command and lands them in the vice president's office, which is where you're placing it?

"Mr. WILKERSON: I'm privy to the paperwork, both classified and unclassified, that the secretary of State asked me to assemble on how this all got started, what the audit trail was, and when I began to assemble this paperwork, which I no longer have access to, it was clear to me that there was a visible audit trail from the vice president's office through the secretary of Defense down to the commanders in the field that in carefully couched terms -- I'll give you that -- that to a soldier in the field meant two things: We're not getting enough good intelligence and you need to get that evidence, and, oh, by the way, here's some ways you probably can get it. And even some of the ways that they detailed were not in accordance with the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and the law of war.

"You just -- if you're a military man, you know that you just don't do these sorts of things because once you give just the slightest bit of leeway, there are those in the armed forces who will take advantage of that. There are those in the leadership who will feel so pressured that they have to produce intelligence that it doesn't matter whether it's actionable or not as long as they can get the volume in. They have to do what they have to do to get it, and so you've just given in essence, though you may not know it, carte blanche for a lot of problems to occur."

....



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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They have to make themselves, and their party, look good. Not saying any other party wouldn't do the same if roles were reversed.

If Bush can accomplish some of his goals, especially with Binny boy and Iraq, the Repubs have a much better chance to keep power in DC.

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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Are you alleging that the Bush Administration has some sort of goals regarding Binny boy and Iraq?

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

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It's not just the military.
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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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And yet- Alberto Gonzalez stil insists that the US needs to "re-evaluate" it's "outdated" definitions of what consists as torture.

Looks like we know all about it.

I dont know who this "Binny Boy" is you are all talking about- certainly no one that has been mentioned by the supposedly liberal media or the White House this year.

After all, we all know that Saddam was in charge of Al Queida and that organization is now "broken" -just like the Taliban.

Because the Taliban are not in power in Afghanistan.

Really! It's a big victory for democracy to have the brutal dictatiors rig the election and get voted into office!

Mission accomplished- it's now time to "move on" as the republicans put it whebever someone wants to examine thier fuckups.


(sigh.)

You know, just after 9/11, I tried, really tried to have faith in Bush and the future in general...I tried to be supportive of our president....

Seriously, my old posts read like a doe-eyed optimist and now I'm more bitter and jaded than Jay.

How did it come to this?

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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TheWoozle
Active Member
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it will be interesting to see how history judges this era. Oddly enough, if it's forgotten, we did just the right thing.

--------------------
joH'a' 'oH wIj DevwI' jIH DIchDaq Hutlh pagh
(some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning)
The Woozle!

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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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Or the people who wrote it felt you did.
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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

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"Today is a good day to zing."

Earth, Hitler, 1938.


When I first saw the pictures of the dems closing the senate for talks, I got really exited and thought "maybe they now have finally gotten incriminating evidence blowing the white house guys wide open".

I'm sure nothing will come of it, though. Too good to be true. It's like suing scientology for damage. Like pouring acid on a goose, just trickles off.

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
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Jay: Yep. I would not put it past any politician to have a group shadowing Binny boy waiting for just the right political moment to take him out.

Iraq, well, maybe not there, other than maybe trying for a good score. 2240 as of Nov 4.....

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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More backlash over the White House's position on torture.

quote:
"As long as you're following the Constitution and there's no torture and no inhumane treatment, I see nothing wrong with saying here is the worst of the worst. We know they have specific information to save American lives in terrorist attacks around the world. That's what we're talking about," Pat Roberts said.

Er...so what about the parts of the Constitution that guerantee the right to a speedy trial and the right to face one's accusers?

I guess those parts were overlooked somehow where detainees are concerned- not that we have a list of who's been detained or any public oversightr into their treatment anyway...

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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Again from Dan Froomkin at the Washington Post

quote:
Jane Mayer writes in the New Yorker that administration policies may preclude the prosecution of CIA agents who commit abuses or even kill detainees.

Mayer writes: "The Bush Administration has resisted disclosing the contents of two Justice Department memos that established a detailed interrogation policy for the Pentagon and the C.I.A. A March, 2003, classified memo was 'breathtaking,' the same source said. The document dismissed virtually all national and international laws regulating the treatment of prisoners, including war-crimes and assault statutes, and it was radical in its view that in wartime the President can fight enemies by whatever means he sees fit. According to the memo, Congress has no constitutional right to interfere with the President in his role as Commander-in-Chief, including making laws that limit the ways in which prisoners may be interrogated. Another classified Justice Department memo, issued in August, 2002, is said to authorize numerous 'enhanced' interrogation techniques for the C.I.A. These two memos sanction such extreme measures that, even if the agency wanted to discipline or prosecute agents who stray beyond its own comfort level, the legal tools to do so may no longer exist. . . .

"For nearly a year, Democratic senators critical of alleged abuses have been demanding to see these memos. 'We need to know what was authorized,' Carl Levin, a Democrat from Michigan, told me. . . . . Levin is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is supposed to have an oversight role in relation to the C.I.A. 'The Administration is getting away with just saying no.' "



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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With any luck, when the Democrats finally have control of two branches of government in 2008, they'll have the brains and/or balls to join the International Criminal Court and parade this whole administration in front of the entire world as the war criminals they are.
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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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mmmm, I kinda like tha idea.

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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quote:

On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988."

Er...excuse me, but I'd need to see a more established source than "the Islam Online website ".
For obvious reasons.

Red Cross? Amnstey International? Doctors Without Borders? They're all in Iraq trying to monitor casualties (in part to insure the insurgents have not aquired and are not using chemical weapons), so I'd be very suprsed if White Phosphorus (which requires serious cleanup and leaves evidence in buildings, bodies and soil) was being used by US forces.

If it was used though, a lot of people need to go to jail forever- it's a truly horrible weapon.

Want to see more prisoner abuse? Just wait.
The US Army announced this week that it will lower it's recruiting standards to make more of it's recruitment goals. An additional 2% of applicants that scored in the lowest quarter in aptitude/acceptability tests will be admitted.
quote:
We have clear experience from the 1970s with recruiting a sizable number of people from the lowest mental categories," said White. After the Vietnam War ended, the Army accepted a higher proportion of low-scoring recruits, which led to training and discipline problems. -Former Army Secretary Thomas White
Gee, recruiting morons and the dregs of society, giving them firearms an enemy to hate and carte blanch to get information will lead to problems?

Naaaa.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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"Er...excuse me, but I'd need to see a more established source than 'the Islam Online website '."

Well, according to the article, they're the ones who first reported it, and the administration denied it. Since then, this Italian network has "hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon."

So, the question isn't whether you trust Islam Online. It's whether you trust Italian state TV.

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