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Author Topic: Prisoner Abuse
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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Well, petitions can work, if we're talking about ballot initiatives/referenda. But, if it's just a letter you're going to send to some official saying "hi, we're a lot of people, and we think such-and-such"... No. Not helpful at all.
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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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This was (IIRC, it's been over a decade) a petition of AI members, Red Cross and several U.S. congressmen, to be presented to the U.N.

Worked really well...just like the hours I spent E-Mailing and writing to have landmines banned. [Roll Eyes]

Bah! FUCK humanity-
I'll go the easy nihilistic way and be able to always say "I told you so".

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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You say that, but pass up talking about HLA???

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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HLA?

My goal is to live like my idol: Johnny Rocketfingers.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Veers
You first
Member # 661

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Speaking of things that would make Bush & Co. seem even worse:
Bush wanted to bomb al-Jazeera

When I first read about it, I said, "Must be a fake." However, the White House did not deny it, only saying it was "outlandish." And the British government did not deny it either, instead activating its Official Secrets Act, threatening legal action against any news organization that publishes the five-page memo. In other words, if such a memo doesn't exist, why was the Secrets Act activated?

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Meh

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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I would believe it, using the excuse that they were not giving the full (US Version) of the story to the Arab world, thus possibly creating more people likely to resent the US for this ill conceived, ill proposed, ill executed excuse for a war in Iraq....

That said, I can say it was a party thing, since I don't think that either party, having started such an ill event, would have done anything different....

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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I'd believe that readily enough- It's not like Al Jezerra has not been very supportive of the terrorist's point of view and they do play every Al Queida message to the point where even their viewers (who certainly dont all agree with it) have complained.
While wrong, the military could make a case for Al Jezerra (called "Al Jizz" by the troops, BTW) supporting the terrorists.

Now, if they decided to say, force an American news source (like PBS) to spew right wing nonsense through intimidation and illegal hiring practices, that would be upsetting.

Oh wait...

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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No matter how propagandized you think they are, you don't bomb a civilian news organization in a country that's allowing you to use their land as your military base of operations. A ten-year-old would know better than that.
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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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But think of all the fuel those bomb runs would save without having to fly all the way to Iraq.....

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
No matter how propagandized you think they are, you don't bomb a civilian news organization in a country that's allowing you to use their land as your military base of operations. A ten-year-old would know better than that.

A ten year old would have known not to invade Iraq untill Afghanistan was really secure too- Risk is ages eight and up. [Wink]

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Here are a couple of atricles to update this thread:

We have this one from The New Yorker.

quote:
THE MEMO
by JANE MAYER
How an internal effort to ban the abuse and torture of detainees was thwarted.
Issue of 2006-02-27
Posted 2006-02-20

One night this January, in a ceremony at the Officers� Club at Fort Myer, in Arlington, Virginia, which sits on a hill with a commanding view across the Potomac River to the Washington Monument, Alberto J. Mora, the outgoing general counsel of the United States Navy, stood next to a podium in the club�s ballroom. A handsome gray-haired man in his mid-fifties, he listened with a mixture of embarrassment and pride as his colleagues toasted his impending departure. Amid the usual tributes were some more pointed comments.

�Never has there been a counsel with more intellectual courage or personal integrity,� David Brant, the former head of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said. Brant added somewhat cryptically, �He surprised us into doing the right thing.� Conspicuous for his silence that night was Mora�s boss, William J. Haynes II, the general counsel of the Department of Defense.

Back in Haynes�s office, on the third floor of the Pentagon, there was a stack of papers chronicling a private battle that Mora had waged against Haynes and other top Administration officials, challenging their tactics in fighting terrorism. Some of the documents are classified and, despite repeated requests from members of the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee, have not been released. One document, which is marked �secret� but is not classified, is a twenty-two-page memo written by Mora. It shows that three years ago Mora tried to halt what he saw as a disastrous and unlawful policy of authorizing cruelty toward terror suspects.

The memo is a chronological account, submitted on July 7, 2004, to Vice Admiral Albert Church, who led a Pentagon investigation into abuses at the U.S. detention facility at Guant�namo Bay, Cuba. It reveals that Mora�s criticisms of Administration policy were unequivocal, wide-ranging, and persistent. Well before the exposure of prisoner abuse in Iraq�s Abu Ghraib prison, in April, 2004, Mora warned his superiors at the Pentagon about the consequences of President Bush�s decision, in February, 2002, to circumvent the Geneva conventions, which prohibit both torture and �outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.� He argued that a refusal to outlaw cruelty toward U.S.-held terrorist suspects was an implicit invitation to abuse. Mora also challenged the legal framework that the Bush Administration has constructed to justify an expansion of executive power, in matters ranging from interrogations to wiretapping. He described as �unlawful,� �dangerous,� and �erroneous� novel legal theories granting the President the right to authorize abuse. Mora warned that these precepts could leave U.S. personnel open to criminal prosecution.

In important ways, Mora�s memo is at odds with the official White House narrative. In 2002, President Bush declared that detainees should be treated �humanely, and to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles� of the Geneva conventions. The Administration has articulated this standard many times. Last month, on January 12th, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, responding to charges of abuse at the U.S. base in Cuba, told reporters, �What took place at Guant�namo is a matter of public record today, and the investigations turned up nothing that suggested that there was any policy in the department other than humane treatment.� A week later, the White House press spokesman, Scott McClellan, was asked about a Human Rights Watch report that the Administration had made a �deliberate policy choice� to abuse detainees. He answered that the organization had hurt its credibility by making unfounded accusations. Top Administration officials have stressed that the interrogation policy was reviewed and sanctioned by government lawyers; last November, President Bush said, �Any activity we conduct is within the law. We do not torture.� Mora�s memo, however, shows that almost from the start of the Administration�s war on terror the White House, the Justice Department, and the Department of Defense, intent upon having greater flexibility, charted a legally questionable course despite sustained objections from some of its own lawyers.

And This one from the New York Times.

quote:
February 26, 2006
A Growing Afghan Prison Rivals Bleak Guant�namo
By TIM GOLDEN and ERIC SCHMITT

While an international debate rages over the future of the American detention center at Guant�namo Bay, Cuba, the military has quietly expanded another, less-visible prison in Afghanistan, where it now holds some 500 terror suspects in more primitive conditions, indefinitely and without charges.

Pentagon officials have often described the detention site at Bagram, a cavernous former machine shop on an American air base 40 miles north of Kabul, as a screening center. They said most of the detainees were Afghans who might eventually be released under an amnesty program or transferred to an Afghan prison that is to be built with American aid.

But some of the detainees have already been held at Bagram for as long as two or three years. And unlike those at Guant�namo, they have no access to lawyers, no right to hear the allegations against them and only rudimentary reviews of their status as "enemy combatants," military officials said.

Privately, some administration officials acknowledge that the situation at Bagram has increasingly come to resemble the legal void that led to a landmark Supreme Court ruling in June 2004 affirming the right of prisoners at Guant�namo to challenge their detention in United States courts.

While Guant�namo offers carefully scripted tours for members of Congress and journalists, Bagram has operated in rigorous secrecy since it opened in 2002. It bars outside visitors except for the International Red Cross and refuses to make public the names of those held there. The prison may not be photographed, even from a distance.

From the accounts of former detainees, military officials and soldiers who served there, a picture emerges of a place that is in many ways rougher and more bleak than its counterpart in Cuba. Men are held by the dozen in large wire cages, the detainees and military sources said, sleeping on the floor on foam mats and, until about a year ago, often using plastic buckets for latrines. Before recent renovations, they rarely saw daylight except for brief visits to a small exercise yard.



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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You know, you're just asking for them to give you another tumor.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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You think they could do that?!?!

Oh, no!

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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If they can get away with half the shit they've already gotten away with...

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Well, I'll just hope that the government ignores me after I post this.

quote:
U.S. Cites Exception in Torture Ban
McCain Law May Not Apply to Cuba Prison

By Josh White and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, March 3, 2006; A04

Bush administration lawyers, fighting a claim of torture by a Guantanamo Bay detainee, yesterday argued that the new law that bans cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody does not apply to people held at the military prison.

In federal court yesterday and in legal filings, Justice Department lawyers contended that a detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, cannot use legislation drafted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to challenge treatment that the detainee's lawyers described as "systematic torture."

Government lawyers have argued that another portion of that same law, the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, removes general access to U.S. courts for all Guantanamo Bay captives. Therefore, they said, Mohammed Bawazir, a Yemeni national held since May 2002, cannot claim protection under the anti-torture provisions.

Bawazir's attorneys contend that "extremely painful" new tactics used by the government to force-feed him and end his hunger strike amount to torture.

U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler said in a hearing yesterday that she found allegations of aggressive U.S. military tactics used to break the detainee hunger strike "extremely disturbing" and possibly against U.S. and international law. But Justice Department lawyers argued that even if the tactics were considered in violation of McCain's language, detainees at Guantanamo would have no recourse to challenge them in court.




--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
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