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Author Topic: Domestic Surveillance
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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"It's amazing how the administration flip-flops from 'they have their own unique culture' to 'we are promoting freedom and human rights' as is convienent when dealing with social reforms (or the lack thereof),"

Don't forget the masterpiece : "Free people are free...to commit crimes...."

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Talk about irony...Deputy Secretary of the Treasury, Robert Kimmitt said this in a recent Senate hearing on the sale of the ports:

"...I don't think we do the country a justice when we politicize national security...."

That's all this administration has going for it is the politicization of national security and the fear card.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

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Speaking of Security: looks like we'll have to send a LOT more troops to "ensure" Iraq's security.

Backsliding.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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Things are afoot!

In my ongoing effort to keep my fellow Flarites up to date on the happenings on the Domestic Surveillance front, I�m here to let you know that there are indeed developments.

quote:
Specter Proposes NSA Surveillance Rules
Measure Would Make Administration Seek FISA Court's Permission to Eavesdrop

By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 26, 2006; A11

The federal government would have to obtain permission from a secret court to continue a controversial form of surveillance, which the National Security Agency now conducts without warrants, under a bill being proposed by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.).

Specter's proposal would bring the four-year-old NSA program under the authority of the court created by the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The act created a mechanism for obtaining warrants to wiretap domestic suspects. But President Bush, shortly after the 2001 terrorist attacks, authorized the NSA to eavesdrop on communications without such warrants. The program was revealed in news reports two months ago.

----

What's that you say...the federal government is already obligated by law to obtain permission from a secret court, which we'll randomly name the FISA Court, to engage in the for of surveillance that they are currently engaged in? I�ll have you know that you�re are engaged in Pre-9/11 thinking when you think like that.

Additionally, you�re being seditious.

And you need to be aware that there are those who will want to prosecute you for sedition.

Glenn Greenwald, from Unclaimed Territory has much to say about the situation and the proposed legislation.

I particularly enjoyed this bit because it's so true.

quote:
An analysis of Specter�s legislation must begin with the still-staggering observation that this legislation would become effective not merely by Congress enacting it (even over a veto), but instead, only by the President agreeing to be bound by the law.

In our country today, having Congress enact legislation is no longer enough for a bill to become an actual, binding law. What is now required as well is that the Administration agree to be bound by the legislation, because we currently live in a country where -- with regard to national security -- the President believes he has the power to obey only those laws that he agrees to obey (while having the power to break those laws which he does not agree to obey).

The Administration, of course, is already violating the current Congressional statute designed to regulate its eavesdropping activities and it has stated that it has the power to do so. Thus, the only way this legislation would ever matter is if the Administration agrees to adhere to this law.

In sum, under our current system of Government, what used to be called a "law" is now more like a contractual offer or a suggestion. When the American people pass a law through our Congress, we have to hope that the President will agree to obey it. But as the President has repeatedly made clear, he believes he does not have to and he may decide � in secret � to violate the law. That�s the profound crisis and scandal plaguing our country that few seem to want to acknowledge.

There is of course, actuall legal analysis of the proposed legislation.

quote:
Highlights of Specter's proposed legislation

In essence, Specter�s proposed legislation abolishes FISA�s requirement that FISA warrants be obtained for each eavesdropping target. Instead, the Administration would be free to eavesdrop without warrants as part of any warrantless eavesdropping program provided that it obtains permission for each such program from the FISA court -- permission which it must obtain every 45 days (Sec. 702(a)).

For any warrantless eavesdropping program the Administration wishes to implement, the Attorney General is required to submit an affidavit to the FISA court every 45 days detailing a wide range of information about the program (sec. 703(a)(1-14)), including:

(4) a statement that the surveillance sought "cannot be obtained by conventional investigative techniques" or by obtaining a FISA warrant;

(6) "the means and operational procedures by which the surveillance will be executed";

(7) a "statement of the facts and circumstances . . . to justify the belief that at least one of the participants in the communications to be intercepted" is an agent of a foreign power" or a "person who has had communication with the foreign power" and,

(14(D)) "the identity, if known, or a description of the United States persons whose communications. . . were intercepted by the electronic surveillance program."

Even under such warrantless eavesdropping programs, surveillance of a person without a warrant is authorized only for 90 days, after which a warrant is required (Sec. 703(a)(12)).

Specter�s bill requires submission to the FISA court for approval of all warrantless eavesdropping programs -- i.e., not only the specific warrantless eavesdropping program which the New York Times disclosed, but any and all currently illegal eavesdropping programs. It thus requires FISA court approval of the program "sometimes referred to as the �Terrorist Surveillance Program� and discussed by the Attorney General before the Committee on the Judiciary . . . on January 6, 2006," and further requires "approval of any other electronic surveillance programs in existence on the date of enactment of this title that have not been submitted to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court." Sec. 702(e)(2).

For each program for which the Administration seeks approval, the FISA court is required to authorize the program if, in essence, it finds (Sec. 704(a)(2-3)) that the eavesdropping program is consistent with constitutional guarantees (i.e., the Fourth Amendment) and that:

[T]here is probable cause to believe that the electronic surveillance program will intercept communications of the foreign power or agent of a foreign power specified in the application, or a person who has had communication with the foreign power or agent of a foreign power specified in the application.

But critically, beyond this provision, the legislation vests substantial discretion in the FISA court to determine "whether the implementation of the electronic surveillance program supports approval of the application . . . " (Sec. 704(b)).

In other words, the FISA court is required to compare the information obtained by the program to be approved for three prior 45-day periods to determine that it has been implemented in accordance with the proposal submitted to the FISA court by the Administration. The FISA court may approve of the program only if it finds that the "benefits of the electronic surveillance program" justifies its authorization, and that it is being implemented consistently with the proposal previously submitted to the FISA court by the Administration. If it does not so conclude, it can (and must) reject the application. That is rather substantial and broad discretion to vest in the FISA court.

There is also a provision in the legislation for Congressional oversight. Section 705 requires submission of a detailed report to the Chairs and ranking members of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees every 45 days. The report must include a description of the information obtained by the program and the means and procedures by which the information was obtained.

A few other notes about the legislation:

(a) it allows warrantless eavesdropping programs not only for international calls from or to the U.S., but purely domestic communications as well;

(b) it expressly excludes from the approval requirement pure data mining activities or the obtaining of information reflecting the details of one�s communications short of the content of the communications -- i.e., the requirements "do not apply to information identifying the sender, origin or recipient of the electronic communications . . . that is obtained without review of the substance of the electronic communication." Sec. 702(d)(2); and,

(c) this legislation is clearly intended to supplant, not supplement, Specter�s prior announced intention to require submission to the FISA court of the question of the program�s legality.



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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So, this is new.

quote:
Sen. Feingold Calls for Censuring Bush

Potential Democratic White House Contender Feingold Proposes Censuring Bush Over Eavesdropping

By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON - A liberal Democrat and potential White House contender is proposing censuring President Bush for authorizing domestic eavesdropping, saying the White House misled Americans about its legality.

"The president has broken the law and, in some way, he must be held accountable," Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., told The Associated Press in an interview.

A censure resolution, which simply would scold the president, has been used just once in U.S. history against Andrew Jackson in 1834.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., called the proposal "a crazy political move" that would weaken the U.S. during wartime.

The five-page resolution to be introduced on Monday contends that Bush violated the law when, on his own, he set up the eavesdropping program within the National Security Agency in the months following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Bush claims that his authority as commander in chief as well as a September 2001 congressional authorization to use force in the fight against terrorism gave him the power to authorize the surveillance.

The White House had no immediate response on Sunday.

The resolution says the president "repeatedly misled the public" before the disclosure of the NSA program last December when he indicated the administration was relying on court orders to wiretap terror suspects inside the U.S.

"Congress has to reassert our system of government, and the cleanest and the most efficient way to do that is to censure the president," Feingold said. "And, hopefully, he will acknowledge that he did something wrong."

The Wisconsin Democrat, considered a presidential contender for 2008, said he had not discussed censure with other senators but that, based on criticism leveled at Bush by both Democrats and Republicans, the resolution makes sense.

The president's action were "in the strike zone" in terms of being an impeachable offense, Feingold said. The senator questioned whether impeaching Bush and removing him from office would be good for the country.

In the House, Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, is pushing legislation that would call on the Republican-controlled Congress to determine whether there are grounds for impeachment.

The program granted intelligence officers the power to monitor without court approval the international calls and e-mails of U.S. residents, when those officers suspect terrorism may be involved.

Frist, appearing on ABC's "This Week," said that he hoped al-Qaida and other enemies of the U.S. were not listening to the infighting.

"The signal that it sends, that there is in any way a lack of support for our commander in chief who is leading us with a bold vision in a way that is making our homeland safer, is wrong," Frist said.

Sen. John Warner, R-Va., said on CNN's "Late Edition" that Feingold's announcement on a Sunday talk show was "political grandstanding. And it tends to weaken our president."

A longtime critic of the administration, Feingold was the first senator to urge a withdrawal timetable for U.S. troops in Iraq and was the only senator to vote in 2001 against the USA Patriot Act, the post-Sept. 11 law that expanded the government's surveillance and prosecutorial powers. He also voted against the 2002 resolution authorizing Bush to use force in Iraq.

Jackson was censured by the Senate in 1834 after he removed the nation's money from a private bank in defiance of the Whig Party, which controlled the Senate.

On Feb. 12, 1999, the Senate failed to gain enough votes to bring a censure resolution against President Clinton. The Senate had just acquitted Clinton after the House impeached him in December 1998, accusing him of committing perjury and obstructing justice in the Monica Lewinsky affair.

Impeachment is the only punishment outlined in the Constitution for a president. But the Constitution says the House and Senate can punish their own members through censure.



--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
Member # 393

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Treachery! Curse the traitor Emmanuruss Feingoldstein! Americania is at war with Irania! Americania has always been at war with Irania!

--------------------
Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Treachery! Curse the traitor Emmanuruss Feingoldstein! Americania is at war with Irania! Americania has always been at war with Irania!

You've learned how to channel the Wing-Nuts well...maybe too well.

I don�t remember where I found the link for this but at the Blogs For Bush site they got it going on!

quote:
Mark Noonan Calls for Censure of Senator Feingold

As Sister Toldjah noted earlier, Senator Russ Feingold (Defeaticrat-WI) has called for the censure of President Bush over the NSA program which gathers signals intelligence on our terrorist enemies.

Given that the only possible beneficiaries of such an action are the terrorist enemeis of the United States, I believe that we should urge the Senate to censure Senator Feingold for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I would ask for his expulsion from the Senate, but as that requires a 2/3 vote its a non-starter - the Democrats, for whom political power is the be-all and end-all of existence, simply would not vote to harm one of their own. Censure, though, only takes a majority vote. There are 55 Republican Senators, and even a few Democratic Senators who haven't driven off the anti-war cliff.

It is way past time that we started holding Democrats accountable for their actions. For too long they have been able to slander President Bush, the Bush Administraiton, the American military and our allies in the War on Terrorism with no consequences for their destructive actions. How many people are dead today because the Democrats have chosen to use the war as a partisan political issue? How many more will die in the future because of it?

Every time a senior Democrats gets up in public and calls for an immediate withdrawal, or accuses American soldiers of abuses, or slanders the motives and statements of President Bush, it encourages the enemy. It helps the enemy to recruit more bomb-laden fanatics who can be convinced that the United States is about to quit because a Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry or Feingold just said on national TV that "X" about the American effort is wrong or a failure. The free ride has gone on too long, and it is time for the patriots to smack down these people with firmness and let the enemy know that we will fight them until victory.

So, keep that in mind next time you engage in discussion about the alleged freedoms being protected by Mr. Bush.

Don't Slander our Dear Leader or else!

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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If anyone is interested, you can read the text of the Censure Resolution here .

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
Member # 393

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What I want to know is, do these people really believe what they're saying? That anyone, even their own countrymen, who disagree with their own political views, are automatically the enemy? Or are they all fully aware that this is just a great methoid to use to cynically gain the upper hand in political debate?

--------------------
Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256

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Of course they don't. It's all a game, about getting people to abandon rational thought and rally behind whoever holds the grandest speech on security and soaring eagles. It worked for the Nazis, and it works just as well for Bush.

Although some of them probably have their heads so far up their asses they buy their own crap for dinner.

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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

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quote:
How many people are dead today because the Democrats have chosen to use the war as a partisan political issue? How many more will die in the future because of it?
YES!! HOW MANY, ADMIRAL??? *vein throbs on chrome dome*

I can't believe this, Bleeding-Heart conservatives? Well, we're tearing up all other conventions these days, so why not.

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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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"What I want to know is, do these people really believe what they're saying? That anyone, even their own countrymen, who disagree with their own political views, are automatically the enemy? Or are they all fully aware that this is just a great methoid to use to cynically gain the upper hand in political debate?"

Your error here is the assumption of an exclusive "or". You yourself made a 1984 reference up above. These people are surely more than capable of the most artful of doublethink.

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Yes, but can doublethink ever "really" exist? It's just another word for hypocrisy. As soon as one of these, er, wing-nuts says to himself or others "Boy, it sure is swell to be able to claim some sort of meta-partisan uber-patriotic moral high ground over our political opponents, so we can claim that anyone who disagrees with us is a traitor" then can they really be said to believe what they say in public?

I suppose that public assertions of faith by political leaders are the same thing. Bush professes to be a Christian, yet are his constant references to being one a reflection of his overwhelming belief, or because he knows there are plenty of people out there who lap it up?

--------------------
Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Sol System
two dollar pistol
Member # 30

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Worrying political uses aside, aren't we all engaged in "doublethink," at least to some degree? I know Orwell was down on it, and maybe we should be, but isn't that, or something like that, how we deal (those of us who are able to) with the sure knowledge of our inevitable death? Or how we avoid becoming misanthropes while being aware of history? It isn't, I'd argue, just a matter of enjoying one thing in spite of knowledge of another, but an actual momentary denial of one or the other concept which we nevertheless fully believe in or recognize.

[But, then, and here I think I am getting way off track -- but I think we get tripped up by the concept of doublethink because we assume that there is some activity, or moment, or nexus of consciousness that we can point to and say "there is the house of the complete self," the part that is aware of all the others. I don't believe that any such unifying self exists. So I don't think it's a paradox that we can really know something, at least to the extent we can ever know anything, one moment, and then fully believe something contrary later.]

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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
Member # 205

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I don't think our "doublethink" regarding our certain death and the emotional hopelessness of human past and future has to do with denying these concepts, it has to do with focus.
We don't focus on those things most of the time and so they don't pose a threat to our mental stability, or you'd stand with a cardboard sign and shout in the streets.
It's the same way I, right now, choose not to focus on the assignment due to be turned in tomorrow at egg time, instead I allow myself a few more hours of wanton spare time; not because I know the solution "Fun first, then work" is a functional one, but because I choose not to focus on that fact.

Did I tell you I'm going to write an essay on "Virtual Escapism Within Youth Culture"?
We'll see if I ever get around to submitting it, what with all the fieldwork to be done, haw haw. (oh shit)

Registered: Aug 1999  |  IP: Logged
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