To Omega: errr no, actly the only thing you need to do after forgiveness for a sin is to do whatever the priest asked you do, which could be praying certain prayers, asking for the persons forgiveness, or reflecting on why you committed the sin (and you honestly have to want to repent and not commit the sin any more). I am not really sure what the indulgence does, but I know you don't have to pay for one.
To Orion Syndicate: Actually Catholics want only one Church too, we actually pray for the reunion of the catholic church (btw this is not the same as the Catholic Church, catholic means universal, we literally pray for one universal Christian religion, which ever it may be Catholic or not). Religous differences are just that differences, and honestly I have never, ever heard a priest blash another Christian religion, mostly they only talk about them in a kind matter.
to Kosh: errr no what Luther got in trouble over is his 95 thesis which he nailed to some churchs door, the real trobule when it got to printing presses, then (pardon the pun) all hell broke loose. Then it became a politcal football, with German princes took Luther's cause mostly because it would let them get all the churchs concidable assets on there lands, which was a LOT of money. Soon princes from both sides started wars over this, not over religion, but power and money.
------------------ Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
posted
So is there any reason for getting an indulgence now?
------------------ "I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." - Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
posted
Basically, the easiest division is that Protestantism believes understanding of God comes from the literal personal study of the Bible, wheras Catholicism emphasises sermons from a Priest as taking precedence over literal verses. It emphasises the words of a priest as God's wishes being communicated to the parish, or something like that. Confessional practices and a lot of stuff surrounding the role of the Virgin Mary also play a role in differentiating the two, as does the extent of how tightly-knit the Trinity is.
------------------ "Well, I guess we're an Ovaltine family." "MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!" -American Radio Ads... *gag*... one more reason I'm glad to be above the 49th.
posted
HMS White Star: You ought to know me better than that. I was confusing purgatory and hell. I grew up in a protestant family and almost all my knowledge of the Catholic church is second hand, much of it from clearly biased sources. I used a light tone, admitted I was probably wrong about some points, and invited others more knowledgeable than I to fill in the blanks and correct errors. Put a sock in it.
His information regarding the nature of an indulgence is correct. I quote: "...extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven..." seems to be saying that instead of doing a penance (the penitent act the priest assigns you to perform to show your contrition) you can get an indulgence (is contrition the correct term?). I wouldn't suppose the church sells them anymore, so who determines who gets one?
[Just read the page on indulgences and am even more confused]. Apparently an indulgence doesn't get you out of a penance. So if the indulgence doesn't get someone out of doing a penance, just what does it do? Does it shorten your stay in purgatory or what?
This is my last comment on this thread.
--Baloo
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited October 18, 1999).]
posted
Sorry Baloo I deserved that, I should have gotten so mad over that (it's just I am defensive of what the Catholic Church gets blamed for that it did not do). I wasn't mad at you for making a misinformed statement, I respect your opinions, and you admitted that your knowledge in the area was somewhat lacking. Instead of giving a witty and informative response I yelled and got angry which is wrong. So, relising my mistake, I humbly ask for your forgiveness for my angry words.
P.S actually the Church doesn't sell indulegences anymore, actually the pratice stopped in 1567's (an excert from the Catholic Encyclopedia)[In 1567 St. Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions]. And honestly I am a little confused too, I guess indulegences helps to take off time in purgatory.
Again sorry Baloo for the comments.
------------------ Pinky we will so rule the world...as soon as I figure out what step 2 is.
[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited October 18, 1999).]
posted
*emerges from a Torque Chamber and winks at Sol*
------------------ "Well, I guess we're an Ovaltine family." "MORE OVALTINE PLEASE!" -American Radio Ads... *gag*... one more reason I'm glad to be above the 49th.
posted
Okay, so I lied about not posting. The discussion has taken an interesting turn. The following is not the exact words used by experts to describe the purrgatory process. (I invite HMS White Star to correct any further errors -- tactfully, please!)
Apparently even a forgiven soul is somewhat "tarnished" upon its arrival in the afterlife. Unforgiven souls go straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, and generally don't have a good time of it. Truly saintly souls ascend directly to heaven, are given the keys to the pearly gates, and given eternal membership in the heavenly country club (or something like that, though perhaps not comprehensible in human terms).
Everyone else (forgiven, but perhaps not saintly, either) goes straight to purgatory. Descriptions I have heard imply that purgatory is like hell, but you are only in for an amount of time determined by God himself, and depending upon the type and severity of the sins you were forgiven from. While in purgatory, the forgiven, but tarnished soul, undergoes "spiritual rehabilitation" to remove the effects of sin (I'm guessing, but that's what it sounded like). The description sounds like "hell-with-a-time-limit". It's awful, but it ends, and when it does, your soul is no longer scarred and tarnished by the effects of sin.
Apart from the speculative bit about saints, I think that's what it's all about.
One question: since indulgences aren't sold, who actually gets them, how and why?
posted
Well first anyone who will get into heaven is a saint (actually the technical defination for a saint in the Catholic Church is anyone in heaven).
Is Purgatory bad, well it depends on what you compare it to, is it bad compared to hell, No because even wit the purifing fires surrounding you, you know I fact that you will be in heaven, period, no exceptions. Compared to heaven, it sucks because you don't get to see the face of God, which puts you in eternal happyness, the closest thing to purgatory, would anywhere else would be a normal life on earth, with the exception, that you aren't going to die again (cuz your already dead, and you have are going to heaven eternally, which is no big deal since you have all the time in the world). Anyway knowing that you are going to heaven is the big advantage there, the only trouble is you can't wait until you get there.
Well on indulegences the Catholic Church gives indulegences for doing certain actions, while you don't get anything on paper it is still an indulgence, example is Praying certain prayers at certain times, wearing certain objects, or going to certain places (the encyclopedia was a vague about that, and frankly I have forgetten that part) Anyone who isn't in mortal sin, who is alive can get an indulgence.
Cool I just found out what indulgences do (from the online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia)...
In the Sacrament of Baptism not only is the guilt of sin remitted, but also all the penalties attached to sin. In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory (q.v.). An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.
posted
*figures it would be wise to step in about now* Let's see... Purgatory, heaven, and hell. Having just gotten confirmed last year, this is all fresh in my mind. First things first: there are official terms for purgatory, heaven, and hell. Purgatory is the church suffering, here on Earth is the church militant, and heaven is the church triumphant. Now, in order to pass go and collect $200 (skip purgatory) you have to either: A) die as an infant who's just been baptised, or B) just come out of confession. If you went to confession, confessed ALL of your sins, and then got hit by a bus on the way out, you go straight to heaven. No questions asked.
Now, as for what purgatory is, it's temporal punishment. Say a mass murderer like Al Bundy is Catholic and dies. He goes to purgatory. He spends about, say, 100 000 000 000 Earth years there in purgatory. Now, that may seem like a lot, but to him it would be just like that *snaps fingers*.
And you can only be declared a saint after you die, BTW
posted
I am always amused by detailed chronologies and administrative processes people present as if they were the definitive texts for "So you've just died" leaflets. Bottom line is nobody knows what happens. Some people believe certain things on faith, because they've been brought up on such things or whatever.
We risk lapsing into personal theologies here, but I sure won't be knocking myself out to get a plenary indulgence next year by going to a certain mass at a certain place. If there's a God I'd rather just discuss my conduct in a civilised way once I die; Perhaps over some tea and crumpets. ("Well, Monty there are a few incidents I'd just like to go over..." )
------------------ "FOOLS! Will I have to kill them ALL?!?!"
)
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