I still don't see how Hell serves any useful purpose, and I can't concieve of a God who would create a whole world/dimension for nothing but tormenting His enemies for all time. It seems.. beneath Him.

There is really no "standard Christian docterine" in my denomination. The Bible says what it says, and you can draw your conclusions from that. The reason we don't know what Hell's specifically like is that we don't need to. But that would definitely be part of the punishment. As I said, He could just give everyone the knowledge of what they'd missed due to their own choices. The punishment would be self-inflicted.

1o'2:

"There's something I don't like in the concept that you have to ASK for forgiveness to deserve it."

You don't deserve it, even if you ask for it. That's the idea of mercy. You're forgiven, even though you don't deserve it. All you have to do is ask to be forgiven and actually believe that you will be. Is even that too high of a requirement?

"I can't concieve of a God who would create a whole
world/dimension for nothing but tormenting His enemies for all time."

I don't think that will be the purpose of Hell. Hell is simply a place where the unforgiven sinners will be removed from God's presence for eternity. The punishment would seem to be self-inflicted. Again, this is all just my opinion. If anyone's got any scripture to contradict this, please let me know.

Well, considering that it leaves out a bunch of people who would otherwise deserve to be there, or who weren't "given" the knowledge or the choice, or died too soon to understand... yes.

What you're saying is that someone could be the most moral person in the world, could have done great things and benefited humanity throughout his/her life, but who dies without being "Christianized" (asking and believeing etc.), is, essentially, worse than the serial killer who "finds God" in jail, and repents as they're taking him to the chair.

This is unacceptable.

Oh, there was something else... aha!
If you really aren't deserving, but you believe you'll be saved anyway... isn't that unparallelled egotism?

Again, NO ONE deserves to go to heaven. We're allowed because God has forgiven us. If someone does something to you and is never sorry they did it, are you going to assume that they're still a good person and won't do it again?

"What you're saying is that someone could be the most moral person in the world, could have done great things
and benefited humanity throughout his/her life, but who dies without being "Christianized" (asking and believeing etc.), is, essentially, worse than the serial killer who "finds God" in jail, and repents as they're taking him to the chair."

There is no "better" or "worse". Compaired to God, we're all dirt. No one is perfect. No matter how good you are, you'll still sin sometime. Again, if someone, say, lies to you once and is never really sorry that they did, you'd never assume that they're not going to lie to you again. God will do whatever it takes to get you to Him, but you still have to take one step on your own. Just one. He'll forgive you, no matter what you've done, but first you have to ask.

"If you really aren't deserving, but you believe you'll be saved anyway... isn't that unparallelled egotism?"

No. It would be unparallelled egotism if I believed that only Christians deserved to go to Heaven. We don't deserve it, either.

Ya know, there are probalby some churches that think those are unacceptable too, so don't come so hard down on the faith as a whole because one of us makes a comment on our personal beliefs.

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With 17 hours of class, guess what I'm doing.

I believe that someone who does not know Jesus or knows of him but denies his divinity, who seeks the truth and tries to do what's right, might wind up in heaven (there's some precedent for that line of thought). There are others who, even knowing Jesus (or at least of him), who do "all the right things" because these things give them power, prestige, or even only a sense of "I'm better than you, you filthy heathen", who will be surprised when they show up at the Pearly Gates and are denied entry because they did not "know" God. They only tried to look like they did. A lot of televangelists are probably going to find themselves in that situation, I am sure.

First of Two, I believe God prefers an attitude of healthy scepticism to "holier-than-thou" any day of the week. The reason Christians evangelize (though apparently many lose sight of this) is that it's probable that the number who will be saved "by accident" is lower than the number who will be saved if there are instructions provided. It is not (or at least should not) be an attempt to "drive the cattle into the corral". When it is, it has no effect, other than to give people a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the term "Christian".

God wants us to have a loving concern for each other, and allows us the opportunity to reach out to one another without interference. Evangelism is one way we Christians can do that. Of course, there are some who think that is the only way we must, but that is not true. Every time we speak a word of kindness or wisdom or lend a hand to another who needs it, we show people the nature of God. Of course, there are a lot of "Christians" who live their life in such a way that anyone who knows them has to conclude that Christianity is a fraud, otherwise they would not do the things they do in God's name. Christianity isn't so much the victim of bad press as it is of bad examples.

--Baloo

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If this is the future, then where are all the flying cars?
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

And could someone explain the Pentecostal religion? My cousin apparently joined it, and my mom says she could tell she was Pentecostal by the way she dressed and the way her hair was, but I don't understand. Help?

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Fabrux's Starship Page

I am Canadian

Pentecostals believe that you haven't been really saved until you speak in tongues. What's speaking in tongues? It's getting so caught up in religious fervor that the Holy Spirit comes right down and starts talking for you in a language you don't understand.

In my experience, it's more along the lines of a Jewish proverb:

A man came into the Synagogue and started reciting the Hebrew alphabet. Puzzled, a Rabbi came up to him and asked what he was doing.

He replied: "I wanted to pray to God in Hebrew, but I don't know how. All I know is the alphabet. I'm just giving God the pieces. He knows what is in my heart and will put it together for me."

My experience is rather like that. Sometimes (especially recently) my heart is so burdened that I don't know what to pray. I just make the sounds that are in my heart (sometimes this has been inarticulate cries of anguish). God knows what the problem is and will act accordingly. It also reminds me that I can only control what I do. I must trust that just because I don't understand what's happening or why, it's not my job to be in charge of everything. Sometimes recognizing your helplessness actually helps you feel empowered, if only because it relieves you of any responsibility for what you do not control.

I don't know if that was a good answer, but if there are any Pentecostals in the forums, I'm sure they can add to what's been said and correct anything I incorrectly said about them. I also hope that they realize that nothing I said was intended as an indictment of their views, but a statement of what I understand.

--Baloo

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If this is the future, then where are all the flying cars?
www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/8641/

"I! AM! NOT! DIRT!!!"

Seriously. Question strongly ANY value system which has as a central tenet "you are dirt."

If you are in it simply to feel good, I can reccomend an excellent anti-migraine medicine that, as a side effect, creates an "exagerrated feeling of well-being." It works fabulously well. (I had my first dose last week and am still bubbly)

I don't question that religion can have a greatly beneficial effect on an individual, when taken in moderation and controlled (much like good food, medicine, and other things that make one feel good.)

But you're right. Take back the old topic. What's the difference? I don't really know, it's not that important to me. Catholicism had the Inquisition, Protestanism had the Witch Hunts. Same difference.