If you'll check my last post, I believe you'll find that I have stated that my previous definition of homosexuality WAS incorrect. Homosexuality (being attracted to people of the same sex) is not in itself wrong. ACTING on that attraction is wrong. (All assuming you believe the Bible, of course.)
"I was taught in school that they're accepted, and I'm betting that's the official word."
Ah, so the pope has the authority to override Christ, now, does he?
"IF there were no contradictions and contraversies in the Bible, people would not be able to debate on it."
Sure, they would. As I'm sure you all think of me, if someone believes something strongly enough, no evidence in the world can convince them otherwise. You all keep saying that there are contradictions in the Bible, but you have yet to point out ONE that can't be attributed to spelling, copying, or translation error. And contraversies are not in the Bible. They're over men's opinions ABOUT the Bible, which is something completely different.
------------------ For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken
posted
Hang on, the Catholic Chruch does accept evolution. In fact about from this one notty homosexuality question, then most modern world problems have been resolved, using the 'metaphour' argument. I went to a Catholic school (and had to wear a unifrom in the sixth from, at 18, pah) and we were taught evolution, about homosexuality, and no-one wrote down on their Biology A-level paper that evolution was crap, and that the Sun goes around the Earth. Natch.
HMS, nice point about the twin-genetics thing. Of course, you're using one example, against the large number of cases that support the personality-genetics thing.
If I remember, different aspects of personality are affected to varying degrees by genetics. Something like intelligence tends to be very genetic dominated, whereas sense of humour is more situation created. Apparently.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
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Sol: Nah, he's telling us to beware of falling skies.
------------------ Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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Well actually the Catholic Church now offically allows that evolution to be believed, but either way is allowed to be believed in, and yes I when to a Catholic School too (hey Liam did you have to wear a tie?) and the curriculcum is perfectly normal, of course that's because of the Acredation people we use, basically the only difference was they they taught religion (I had one guy who failed 4 years of religion and was still allowed too pass, he just had to write a paper it.)
Also I used the Twinning example because it was the best on that popped into my head (and you have to admit it's a dramatic example of what environment can do to a person) and actually the two brothers had a lot of the same characteritics except that one thing.
------------------ HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )
posted
HMS: The flaw in your example is that racism is not part of our inherent personality. It's TAUGHT. It is extremely unlikely that the twins' genetics will tell her/him to love or hate Jews. Genetics may have something to do with personality and gender preferences, but it's not always the case. I've seen examples of separated twins who've become totally opposite people and those who finish each other's sentences.
Oh, and I didn't say the Catholic Church didn't believe in Evolution, but they don't accept homosexuality completely. I was just too lazy to explain what I meant by a church that accepted both Evolution and homosexuality.
------------------ --Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a Protestant? --I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
--James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
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Omega: I have to say that I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible. Either something is wrong or it isn't. As the commandment goes, though shall not covet. It doesn't say that thou shall not act on thy covetous feelings. It's the thought itself that is a sin, no? Therefore homosexuality is either entirely evil or it isn't.
Now, for my unasked-for editorializing.
Homosexuality doesn't match up with the usual qualifications given "sin". It harms no one. It doesn't take anyone away from "God's presence". It's simply being attracted to someone of the same sex. Why is that wrong? Surely there must be some sort of reason. After all, the central principle of most modern religions is that God is understandable. Else why have a rulebook at all?
------------------ "And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot." -- The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
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HMS: Yup, and a blazer. Or jumper. In lovely black.
You know, since homosexuality isn't mentioned in the ten commandments, it can't be THAT important, can it?
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
posted
First, sorry if my reply doesn't make much sense. I'm having some alergy problems, so my brain isn't working perfectly today.
Sol:
Well, the Bible does say "Thou shalt not steal", which is essentially the same as "Thou shalt not act on thy covetous feelings". I think the Hebrew word translated as "covet" carries a connotaion of jealousy, which itself implies hatred of someone because they have something you want. Envy, on the other hand, is just wanting something, but not nesecarily disliking the person that has it. You can be attracted to your best friend's girlfriend, but not hate your friend. Envy would be more of a hatred, or at least a rejection, of the position God has placed you in. God designed humanity in two sexes. Having sex with members of your own gender would be contradictory to God's design of nature. If He had intended for everyone to have sex with anyone of any gender, we'd all be hermaphroditic. Homosexual activity can also be dangerous by spreading disease, and there have been many instances of homosexuals marrying members of the opposite sex, then leaving their spouse and any children they may have for homosexual relationships, simply because they don't resist the temptation, or don't want to. Somehow I doubt that this can be considered not to be harmful.
------------------ For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken
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To Liam: A tie and blazer, fun fun, me too btw, where you allowed to wear outside jackets in the winter, we wheren't and it sometimes got pretty cold and how often were your required to wear them, in my school it was fall uniforms and during all school masses (once a month, well only for the guys). Wait the girls only had to wear a jumper, our girls had to wear a jumper and blazer in the winter, which smelled bad when it rained.
------------------ HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )
posted
As I understand it, many serious scholars now believe that the prohibitions against the practice of homosexuality came about largely because the Jews wanted to differentiate themselves from the surrounding tribes, many of whom practiced it, not from any inherent evil.
As for homosexuality spreading disease.. name me ONE disease that homosexuals get that heterosexuals can't.
And by the way.. did CHRIST say one word directly about homosexuality either way? I know the OT did (but that's the OLD covenant) and Paul blathered on about it, but Paul's not divine (unless you believe that he can override JC)
------------------ "We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
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I don't have a lot of time that's why I am posting so short things.
1. Everyone educate themselves and don't try to stereotype anyone here.
2. There IS a truth to everything. We just have to find it.
------------------ It's all about the Pentiums, Baby! "I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
posted
The Bible also says "Honor thy father and mother". What exactly does that have to do with sin being action and not thought? Nothing? Right.
"Envy would be more of a hatred, or at least a rejection, of the position God has placed you in. God designed humanity in two sexes."
So everything God created is inherintly perfect? When my poor brain manufactures far too much of a certain type of neurotransmitter and I go off my rocker and eat my neighbors, is that good? Is everything that stems from God's perfect creation good? Obviously not. And don't blame it on human choices, because I've never met anyone that can change their own brain chemistry at will.
"Having sex with members of your own gender would be contradictory to God's design of nature. If He had intended for everyone to have sex with anyone of any gender, we'd all be hermaphroditic."
If God had meant man to fly, there would be 20 meter long hawks with natural saddles. If God had meant man to eat with a fork we would have retractable knuckle tines. If God had meant man to be an independant rational being he would have created us with the ability to know the difference between good and evil.
Sorry, but there are lots of things that God didn't create, and unless you're suggesting that everything invented from Adam on is evil and the work of Satan, I don't see any reason to suggest that a romantic relationship between two members of the same sex is any different.
"Homosexual activity can also be dangerous by spreading disease,"
But of course. So can drinking from a public water fountain, or kissing a pretty girl, or...heaven forbid, joining together in carnal abandon. And that's between ANY two people. It's also a good idea to wash your hands after using the bathroom.
"and there have been many instances of homosexuals marrying members of the opposite sex, then leaving their spouse and any children they may have for homosexual relationships, simply because they don't resist the temptation, or don't want to."
You aren't seriously suggesting that repressed homosexuality is a major, or even significant cause of divorce, are you? Because academic interests aside, that's a pretty major slander to quite a few people.
At any rate, what exactly is the problem here? That homosexuals are forced into heterosexual relationships that they have no desire to be a part of? Ouch. Excuse me, I was temporarily blinded by the obvious. Perhaps a better solution would be to construct a society wherein people could pursue those whom they actually cared about, and not be forced into damaging lifestyles simply because "it's the way it's always been done"?
------------------ "And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot." -- The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
I didn't say exclusive diseases, and Paul was divinely inspired. Well, according to the book of Acts, he was, and that was written by the same guy who wrote the Gospel according to Luke (named Luke, oddly enough), so if you throw out one, you have to throw out the other with it.
Sol:
"So everything God created is inherintly perfect?"
Something like that. Thanks to old Luci and free will, though...
Not to say it's ALL Satan's fault, mind you. Just didn't want anyone to misinterpret that.
Your first two examples involve artificial tools, and are thus not analagous, and as for the third, God did create man "an independant rational being". If He hadn't, Adam and Eve couldn't have screwed up in the first place.
"You aren't seriously suggesting that repressed homosexuality is a major, or even significant cause of divorce, are you?"
No, I'm not, but it has been known to happen, and not in just two or three isolated incidents. I can think of at least two off the top of my head. Heck, Paul wrote a letter to an entire city where multiple marriages were breaking up and BOTH partners were seeking out homosexual relationships.
"At any rate, what exactly is the problem here? That homosexuals are forced into heterosexual relationships that they have no desire to be a part of?"
And now we get back to blaming something else... Nobody can force you to do anything. Your actions are your responsibility, and no one else's.
Oh, and Bryce, if your reading this:
I'm under the impression that you are charged by the hour for 'net access, and thus can only write short messages. If so, I have a suggestion: Get online and go to the forum thread you want to respond to. Open the thread in one window, and the reply-to window in another. Then get offline and write your post. Just get back online when you're finished and submit.
------------------ For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. - H. L. Mencken
posted
"Something like that. Thanks to old Luci and free will, though..."
Now wait a minute. You get after me for supposedly pointing blame where it doesn't exist, but when it comes to God's creation, we're at fault? We didn't start the thing. Seems to me any errors in the system are exclusively the fault of the programmer. Unfortunately, I seem to have lost my registration card.
"Your first two examples involve artificial tools, and are thus not analagous, and as for the third, God did create man "an independant rational being". If He hadn't, Adam and Eve couldn't have screwed up in the first place."
Why are you dismissing them? What does the nature of our tools have to do with anything? Define "artificial", for starters. Either God created man with everything he could possibly ever need, or God didn't. If the former, everything in the modern world, including music, poetry, and chairs; are products of rebellion towards God. If the latter, than the Fall wasn't really a bad thing, was it?
"No, I'm not, but it has been known to happen, and not in just two or three isolated incidents. I can think of at least two off the top of my head."
And? I can probably name at least two instances where a couple broke up because one of them was absolutely convinced that aliens where busy siphoning out their brain matter every night. For this we should take everyone who believes they've been abducted out of society and place them in special re-education camps? Perhaps start the Society for the Preservation of Alien Abductee Marriages? (I think I just might...SPAAM...cool.)
I've got this mountain here...what's that you say? Moles? No, there aren't any moles around. Why do you ask?
"And now we get back to blaming something else... Nobody can force you to do anything. Your actions are your responsibility, and no one else's."
I really, really hope that I'm simply misunderstanding you. That's probably the case. Because otherwise it sounds to me that you're saying that the blame for abusive relationships rests on the head of the abused. Not only is that wrong, it's DAMNED wrong.
------------------ "And much of Madness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot." -- The Conqueror Worm, by Edgar Allan Poe
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