Bryce: Jay is correct. I could, and in fact did before thinking better of it, use your "logic" to say the following...

Christians believe the only good woman is one who has been beaten into submission.

Are there Christians who are abusive thugs? Certainly. Does that mean that all Christians beat their wife? Of course not. Please think a bit next time before you type, ok?

Anyway, I'm now an Athiest. Officially! Daryus will be proud, but that's it! As Trent Reznor once said, your god is dead! Wait though, he's three people, so that should be okay :-)

I'm going to steer clear of these religious debates for a while...

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

You are such a hypocrite. The programs I talked about are just expanding areas where the government is already there... necessary, of course, because humans were born into sin due to Adam and we need the government?

Conservatives, nature's hypocrites.

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

There's basically two questions you have to ask to determine whether Clinton's a liberal or not: Does the national government have more power now then when Clinton was elected the first time? Would the national government have yet more power if every law he submitted to congress had been passed? Unless I missed something BIG, the answers are "yes" and "yes". In my book, that makes him a liberal.

'Course, then you have to take into account that he's effectively admitted that he's socialist. Remember that interview where he said that it's not our money? And that we wouldn't spend it the right way, anyway? 'Course, how well did the media report it?

Tora: You said, "You could substitute any deity for the word 'God,' and the question would basically remain the same, but useless to you because it's no longer the Christian God." Not at all! I AM a Christian, by my own choice and decision, but I would encourage EVERYONE to substitute the name of any and every diety into the what-if question, then live for a while by that diety's principles, test that diety's promises, and see if He/She/It/They measure up. IMHO, the whole purpose of living a human life is to choose where you'll spend eternity... All I'm urging people to do is to make sure they have all the facts before they choose.

Bryce: When I read the following, I nearly fell off my chair:
--WARNING!!--
I AM working on a major in Bible and maybe a minor in philosophy, and later a Master's. I will have a whole lot of stuff to throw out in the future. Stuff most of you will be scratching your head's at.

I don't know if you meant to sound arrogant, but you did. As a fellow Christian, I was very offended by that remark. Oh, and if you think having that degree will give you all the answers, I suggest taking a quick look at Psalm 145:3. Not trying to flame you too much (after all, we're brothers here) but I think you ought to be careful how you phrase things. A mentor of mine once said, "If you win the argument but lose the person, you've lost the argument."

Sol: I loved this one: "I'm sure my life would feel better if I spent my time in an ether-induced haze, too, or looked at it through a bottle. But you see, it wouldn't be my life any longer." All I'll say is that it's been at least five years since I took my brain out and had it washed... Maybe it's time I did it again, huh?

And DT: You said you were going to steer clear, but dropped this on the doorstep on the way out: "The only good Christian is one who fakes their faith." I sure wish you'd explain that before you make your exit from the debate. I don't understand what you mean by it.

Thanks for reading!

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Dane

"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7

Liberal? I put it to you that EVERYONE who is involved in government is Liberal, by your definition, except those who fight to get laws repealed, rather than passed. (I suppose this makes Anarchists, who want no laws and no government, the Ultimate Conservatives. Too bad anarchy is totally non-functional as a means of society.)

And as for this:
>"I would encourage EVERYONE to substitute the name of any and every diety into the what-if question, then live for a while by that diety's principles, test that diety's promises, and see if He/She/It/They measure up. IMHO, the whole purpose of living a human life is to choose where you'll spend eternity... All I'm urging people to do is to make sure they have all the facts before they choose."

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (this has recently become my favorite phrase, pardon its overuse.)

You know, I used to be a Methodist Kid. I helped run Church Summer camps, if you believe that.. I went to church with my grandmother (probably the last Good Christian I ever knew personally, possibly the ONLY)

Then, round about 16 some things started to happen, and the stuff really hit the fan with the death of someone close to me when I was 17. So, I started questioning. I used the latent rational mind I possessed to objectively look at the Way Things Are vs the Way Things Should Be, given the existence of God As Advertised. I tested. I probably did some things I shouldn't have, but it was all for the sake of complete objectivity.

The first thing I discovered is that something my father used to say, "Wish with one hand and hold the other behind a horse, and see which fills up first," applied equally to prayer. This held true whether the prayer was selfish in nature or not.
Prayers were "answered" in equal proportion whether they were addressed to "God," the Deity that controls the Universe, or the Great Potato.

This same rule applied to all other "pre-demise" promises experienced by myself and all other experimental subjects. (Objective 'witnesses,' if you will.) Of course, there's no way to test "post-demise" promises scientifically, as I don't yet have the equipment to run multiple tests.

In conclusion, I found that I derived no benefits, aside from that of a false sense of peace of mind, from the Control Subject during my initial run. Further attempts at replicating that effect, even with the Control, were fruitless.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

What the hell is it with "conservatives" and the "power" of the government?? Do you even have a clue what your talking about or are you just spouting things you've heard on talk radio without bothering to read on your own? Hmmm??

The government began to expand since the election of Washington, took a giant leap forward under the enigmatic Jefferson, continued to grow under Jackson, and reached a watershed of 19th century growth under Lincoln.

Lincoln say you? Why yes, for he understood that for the promise of the Constitution to extend in full the the citizens of the nation only when the goverment is willing to take an active role to see that it is done. So let's blame him shall we? Perhaps we could blame the Guilded Age presidents (and if you don't know what the Guilded Age is, go look it up) for hiding in a hole while the Robber Barons (see above about reading) raped the country and the citizens while the governement sat idly by not following it Constitutional duty to protect the citizens. All of which precipitated Roosevelt saving the precious capital system we live under by modifying it.

See, were you to actually read the history of the issues you argue so vehemently about crap like Clinton 'expanded government.' Perhaps you would find the Mr. Clinton isn't the person responsible for the increasing power of the United States government in the era since Roosevelt.

Once again, were we to read history one can see that Johnson, like Lincoln before him, understood that the roll of government was to protect the rights of all its citizens' to in effect continue the fight in what one historian defined as America's "Unfinished Revolution" and work in an active fashion to guarantee civil rights.

We might also find that the angelic Ronald Reagan lead to a great expansion of the military bringing about a huge deficit that you so blame on Clinton for trying to fix.

[edited to reflect that it was the elder Bush, another compassionate conservative, who brought on the tax increase and not Comrade Reagan.]

And finally, yes Sally, government does belong in the lives of it's citizens. The Constitution enumerates rights and appoints the government as the institution to protect those rights. I wouldn't trust the majority of coporations to do anything more for their collective workers other than screw them as much as possible to make a buck.

So the pathetic pursual of Clinton by consevative types once again shows how completly childish they are.

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It's no use. I guess I'll have to leave all my money to the Egg Advisory Council. Eggs have gotten quite a bad rap lately, you know, Smithers.
~C. Montgomery Burns

OK, first, expansion of the military to eliminate a threat is good. The defence of this nation is the primary responsibility of the national government. How do they do that? With the military! The military is not the horrible, evil institution Al and Bill believe it to be. It is the first, last, and only line of defence for our freedom.

Second, Regan lowered, not raised, taxes to get the revenue he needed to finance that military buildup. Check the records. Taxes were cut significantly on ALL classes, not just the rich, as revisionist liberals would have us believe. In fact, the rich got the SMALLEST tax cut. As a result of lowering taxes, tax revenues doubled. (And liberals say supply side economics doesn't work.) Unemployment and inflation also dropped to levels not seen since, nor for a good time before. The only tax increase he passed involved a budget deal with the Democrat controlled congress, in which they agreed to cut spending by twice as much as he raised taxes. They lied. They did something similar with Bush, didn't they?

Clinton, on the other hand: has the "man" (I use the term loosely) ever proposed a tax cut? He wouldn't pass a 1% across the board spending cut. 1-freakin'-%! And that's really just a reduction in growth, since there's always something like a 5% spending increase per year figured in to begin with, so to actually CUT spending, you have to first reduce by whatever that rate is.

"I wouldn't trust the majority of coporations to do anything more for their collective workers other than screw them as much as possible to make a buck."

Only if the people running the corporation are idiots. Treating your employies like dirt does the corporation very little good in the long run.

Besides, corporations have rights, too. The government can't choose one side or the other. The best idea would be for the government to let the people and the corporations work things out for themselves, as long as no one violates the rights of anyone else.

So the pathetic pursual of capitalism and the military by liberal types once again shows how completly without a clue they are.

Omega, read up, I'm now an Athiest! Trinitarians have convinced me god is dead. Anyway, Jesus was a socialist, as was god. Tell me where the corporations were in the Garden of Eden you tool of Satan.

Anyway, I shall not respond to a single of your accusations until you respond to mine about the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act.

Now, over to defending Clinton, who by current political standards is a moderate, not a liberal. The only liberals left are Hillary and Kennedy.

Let me first defend Mr Clinton, then I shall attack him.

To begin with, he's more man than you are. I've got a feeling Bill Jr has seen more action than you.

Now, let us get on with ripping him, shall we?

Conservative policy: Militarily. Clinton plans the largest military increase since Reagan, and likewise has used the military to bomb many countries. That's what Republicans are good at!

Was it just me, or did Clinton cut Welfare? Last I checked this is a strongly conservative thing to do. Republicans, as they are so prone to racism, gladly enjoy slashing welfare so as to take our poor and, effectively, put them into some form of slavery.

"Ain't it funny how the school yards closed, round the time that the factory doors closed, round the time that the doors of the jail cells opened up to greet you like the reaper?"

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

My comment about Christians was in reference to Sol's comment about them in response to the offensive statements about Muslims.

And yes, your life would be better in an ether induced state. But heroin is even better

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

True, but how do you deal with opressive governments like China's? Can't very well force them to make their people free.

DT:

"Anyway, Jesus was a socialist"

Only as far as his followers went. You want to FORCE everyone to give to the poor. God wouldn't want that, as I demonstrated in our ICQ conversation. You gonna post that, BTW?

"Tell me where the corporations were in the Garden of Eden"

What does this have to do with anything?

"Anyway, I shall not respond to a single of your accusations until you respond to mine about the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act."

Haven't had time to look them up yet. Give me some time. Or, if you prefer, post it yourself.

"Now, over to defending Clinton, who by current political standards is a moderate, not a liberal. The only liberals left are Hillary and Kennedy."

I don't care about your "political standards". He wants bigger government. That, my friends and enemies, is a liberal. Period.

"To begin with, he's more man than you are. I've got a feeling Bill Jr has seen more action than you."

My point exactly. I resist temptation. Better yet, I try to avoid tempting situations altogether. He doesn't even seem to have a consience(SP?) to tell him when something's wrong. When did how much sex you've had become the measure of a man?

"Conservative policy: Militarily. Clinton plans the largest military increase since Reagan, and likewise has used the military to bomb many countries. That's what Republicans are good at!"

Well, if you do mean "plans", and that's not just a typo, do you actually believe a word he says anymore? He also claimed to have planned a middle-class tax cut and supposedly had a 100 day plan for his first term. He didn't. I'll believe it when I see it.

And he bombed countries where we had no interests, or no evidence of anything that affected us. Similar to Vietnam, in some cases. The only country he was justified in bombing was Iraq, and he should have continued until we could get inspectors in on a regular basis. He uses the military to get attention away from himself. That's the only concievable reason for all these bombings. It's also pretty odd for someone who "loath[s] the military" to use it so often, wouldn't you say?

"Republicans, as they are so prone to racism"

I have yet to see one example of modern Republican racism, despite all the liberal accusations.

"gladly enjoy slashing welfare so as to take our poor and, effectively, put them into some form of slavery."

More like take them out of slavery. As long as someone can get everything they need from the government, they won't work. They become dependant on the government. THAT's slavery, not forcing the poor to actually work for a living.

"And yes, your life would be better in an ether induced state. But heroin is even better"

Ah, so THAT explains it...

As for the religious thread, I don't believe in any God and I don't feel better or worse about it. Like pretty much any one of my age in my town. They believe in God in some way, but don't give a damn about Church and the Bible. As a whole, Christianism seems pretty much dead with the youger generations in Quebec although I can't really give any statistics... In the US, its seems better than ever...

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

The main purpose of Basic Training is to get young, self-centered males to stop identifying only their own needs and desires, and subordinate them to the group (yes, I know there are females in the military, but they are already accustomed to cooperative social behavior, for the most part). Another aspect of military training (for combat forces, anyhow) is to break down the innate human reluctance to kill without creating a homicidal maniac. Before you try to say that young males are reluctant to kill, keep this in mind: if street gangs killed with the efficiency of a modern army, they's need dump trucks to clear the bodies off the street every morning.

--Baloo

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EXPERIENCE, n. The wisdom that enables us to recognize as an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced.
--Ambrose Bierce
Come Hither and Yawn...[/B]

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson