As opposed, say, to the gated, high-security, armed-guard-patrolled hollywood liberal elite suburbs?

>"I'd think that most breakers & enterers wouldn't find out until they encounted you & your Dobie-O-Matic sittin' in the drawing room in wait."

There are many ways around this. My personal favorite is to display a used target silouette. an NRA sticker under your security alarm label is effective, nd given that the majority of home crimes are committed by people known to the victim, just letting it be known that you squeeze off a few rounds now and then can help. When I was in high school, everybody knew my father was a gun collector. Kids asked me all the time if it was true he sometimes wandered the property at night armed to the teeth (it wasn't). But during a rash of burglaries in the country (where your neighbors aren't close enough to know you're being robbed), houses surrounding us were robbed, but ours remained untouched.

>"So what if they can't run up a flight of stairs without having to sit down?"

That's biased, prejudicial, and downright rude. And it ain't true, neither. Myself, I took high-end training when I was younger, in a Scout troop run by a couple of ex-Marines, one of whom fought in 'Nam. I learned just about everything one would need to know if, say, one survived a air crash in an isolated part of the world. I've lived in the woods for weeks at a time, hiked 50 miles in a day, climbed a mountain, built snares, caught, killed, cooked, and eaten wild animals. I'm fairly good at tracking and stalking human beings in a wilderness situation (think advanced 'capture the flag'.) I may not be able to do a hundred pushups, but.. so? In a defnesive position, that's not generally a going concern.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

That being said, I can safely say that whether or not a person has owned a firearm has never once stopped me from performing a punitive expedition into another person's house. I know I can react quicker, better, & have a lot more warning than any occupant with a firearm...especially since I have night vision so damn good, it's almost infravision.

I don't own a firearm. I never WILL own a firearm. I think they're clumsy, I think they're too easy to use, & I think they lack class. This does not mean that I feel they should be banned; if you want one, great, have at it. YES, there should be restrictions: no sales to repeat offenders, no sales to persons with questionable mental capacity (as diagnosed by a physician)...& I feel that there should be no sales to ANYone until they can show proof of completion of a "firearm philosophy" course.

"But Shik, how is that different than gun safety/waiting periods/etc?" Simple. Firearm safety is one thing; it's easy to learn in about 15 minutes: don't shoot yourself. Keep ammunition & firearm in separate locked locations. Clean the weapon to prevent accidents. That kind of stuff. What's needed is a "firearm philosophy," where you're taught how NOT to use the weapon. I'm a student of Japanese swordsmanship; when I learned, I was required by the sensei to study various mental, physical, & even "spiritual" (for lack of a better term) philosophies for many months before I was even ALLOWED near even a kendo stick.

I don't see anything like that for firearms. It's "I've got a gun, lemme blast your frikkin' head off." This is not to say there are no responsible firearm owners out there; I grew up with many (which is where I learned to shoot) & many are good friends of mine. They, too, agree that there is no one teaching potential buyers & owners how to refrain from abusing the overwhelming sense of power one receives when owning a firearm. People draw guns over petty things these days--slow drivers, a lemon in their Coke, no sauce with my McNuggets; in the 8 years I've owned my katana, I've drawn it in anger ONCE, & that was only because my housemate's asshole boyfriend decided to make a mistake & attack me in a drunken rage. I've been TEMPTED to use it...in a perfect universe, I'd be ABLE to use it with no consequences...but I don't. why? Because of the training that was instilled in me.

BOTH sides are right. PEOPLE kill people AND guns kill people. The proliferation of firearms only makes it EASIER to kill a person; anyone who really WANTS to kill someone will still manage to do so. Look at the fact that 98% of all premeditated murders are committed either by hand, by poison, or by a bladed weapon. Firearm deaths are more "spur of the moment" or rage-induced. The exception to that is the drive-by, where they're too fucking lazy to even get out of the goddamned CAR.

Fifty years ago, this shit didn't happen. I blame 2 groups: the "do what makes you happy & deal with yourself first" idiots who espoused that shit to my generation's parents, thus screwing us mentally (& in other ways) for our entire lives & the Bible-thumping ultra-"moral" "God is going to send you to hell" jackasses that really think that because I play AD&D & watch anime, I'm a Satanist. There are the extremist,s yes...but the extremists are heard far too much these days.

I want a return to COMMON SENSE. I want someone to go over the federal budget & say, "What is this shit? $12.6 billion in cost overruns on the A-12??" I'm a defense geek--I love the military, but come ON! When you go over budget, Lockheed, pay for the rest out of your own damned POCKET. Maybe that'll help you get thing done on time.

I want someone to stand up to the fucking "Christian right" (who, in the words of Lizz Winstead, "are neither Christian NOR right") & say, "LOOK....I don't CARE if you think abortion is a fucking sin or NOT. Other people want that option, so we're letting them have it. No one is making you GET one...although maybe YOU should've BEEN one." If anyone is that concerned about "the babies," let them go to Pakistan or Burundi or some OTHER desert hellhole & preach THERE.

I want someone to look at campaigns & say, "HOLY SHIT!! You spent $800,000 on a TV ad & took $300,000 from a Chinese dummy corporation? Doesn't that seem a little WRONG to you??" I've been in politics. I KNOW that the urge to get big money is there...but come ON. THINK. And for that matter, what ever happened to the concept of "representative government?" This is yet another reason why I could never be in politics--I would actually go to my constituents & ask them, "What do YOU want ME to do?" The majority rules. I don't care HOW I feel. I'm not THERE to represent ME, I'm there to represent THEM.

And to get back on target, I want someone to look around at all the weapons groups--both pro & con-- & SMACK them. Tell the NRA to get off its fucking high horse & take off there goddamned blinders. Tell Cease Fire & the rest of the ultra-leftists to stop dropping acid, take a hit off the crack pipe, & see that in The Real World, they're partly to blame for the problems they want to solve with a quick fix.

It's 8000 years of human nature. Nothing's getting changed until someone actually stops playing the sides & works for TRUTH.

But Shik... just what are you doing breaking into people's houses? Just curious.

I'd have to agree with you on guns and their lack of style. I've always liked stuff like kendo and bo-jitsu.

Don't like the "firearm philosophy" course idea, at least not as a law. "Shall not be abridged." Period. Now if you could get all the people who sell guns to do this voluntarily, it might be OK, but then you'd have the same problem as you have with waiting periods. Namely that there are times in which you need to buy a gun immediately (when someone has threatened to kill you, for example).

"Nothing's getting changed until someone actually stops playing the sides & works for TRUTH."

Problem here is that people on both sides actually think they ARE working for what is right. I certainly believe I am.

And a side note on abortion, you make a distinction between abortion and murder. There is none. Give me one good reason why an unborn child should not be considered a living human being. One. And "because it isn't born yet" does not constitute a good reason.

I'll tell you what, I'll post something about evolution, and then maybe we can go another 90 posts with people shouting at each other convinced that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.

The problem with it NOT being made a law would be that it wouldn't have the point get across. All laws can be repealed, & in many instances, have term limits. I'd be more than willing to concede a referendum after 10 years to determine whether the law could (or SHOULD) be repealed. This goes to the "people are too fucking lazy to think for themselves" train of thought. Apparently, America needs a nice boot camp mentality where they need to be told exactly what to do & how to act. Seen some of the legislations since the early 80s? Phoof!

As for abortion, my stand on it is this: I'm pro-choice. This does not mean "abortions for all." This means I feel the option should be left open for consideration if the person chooses. Five years ago, my mother told me that had she not had an abortion in 1970, I'd've had an older half-sibling. Wow. I had a girlfriend who was raised Southern Baptist, who personally did not believe in abortion, but was pro-choice because she recognized that her beliefs were no better or worse than another's. As a man, I don't really think what I feel matters. I just know I want that option to be available to my wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister so that SHE can make the choice about HER own body.

My primary line is that people should be free to make their own decisions & have all the options open to them, as long as they are fully aware of the consequences. With abortion, that means that some people are going to see you as a murderer, while others will see you as a "champion of freedom" or some such bullshit like that. With guns, it means that everyone should be free to purchase one, but you have to learn how NOT you use, & if you use it in anger, you lose the right to ever own one again. Notice no one talks about how the prison population is denied voting rights after a year & a day of incarceration; this is because we all agree they've lost the right to participate in that form of society.

I would LOVE to banish all SORTS of shit & people...to set into motion my own genetic "weeding" plans....to make this world my own personal utopia. But it ain't gonna happen. The best I can do is, "Sorry if my shit pisses you off, but it's mine. Your shit pisses me off, TOO, & I think you're a JACKASS, so why don't YOU go over THERE & I'LL stay over HERE & we'll just not talk & things will be bitchin', OK?" YES, we have a responsibility for all sorts of shit on this world. But it starts at home, man. No matter how screwed up my parents made me, they taught me 1 important thing: when you state your opinion, make sure you say as much. This is why I usually end things with lines like, "But I'm a lazy-ass Jew...the hell do I know?"

And now for the full-circle "tie-up:" This is what Trek's about, man. You really think the Tellarites & the Vulcans get along? EVERYONE pisses off the Zaldans & then there's the Argelians & Halkans, who won't even piss on a fire to put it out even if it'd burn down an entire planet because "violence & repression are not our ways." Yet they all manage to work with each other with that common goal in sight. THAT is what we need to do. Blame rock & rap music for kids killing each other? No, let's try looking at what they're TAUGHT--or rather, NOT taught--first. The nation is losing sight of its "Christian morality?" I got NEWS for ya: it never HAD any. Half the Founding Fathers refused to accept organized religion & realized its inherent problems; that's why there's no "official" state religion OR language. YES, I hate that Paco & Jorge can't be bothered to learn English anymore & yammer away at me in Spanish or Portuguese or that Phoung cooked my dog in some sort of Laotian voodoo ritual. But man, that's their RIGHT in this nation, just as it's my right to bitch about it & everything else on the wwweb.

Everyone's just gotta calm the fuck DOWN. Put on some jazz, grab a pint of ice cream, flop on the couch, & watch some kids play. Do it for 20 minutes a day every day; you'll feel a WHOLE lot better & it'll put everything into perspective.

As for my being in other people's houses....I had some dealings with the shadier side of the law in my youth. No arrests, charges, or convictions....mainly silly kid stuff, but it was enough.

Guns aren't elegant, honorable, or manly. That much is true. I myself, would disdain their use... if there weren't so many inelegant, dishonorable, less-than-a-man people out there carrying them already. Putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage is not a survival instinct. Ask all the people who think Federation ships should have cloaking devices.

Of course, you'll notice, if you pay close enough attention, that many of the same people who favor gun control also scoff at such "antiquated" notions of personal honor. They also tend to have strange notions of property rights, as though you don't deserve what you work to earn.

There's a pattern there...

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

So forgive me, and the NRA, if we defend the Bill of rights as WRITTEN. The ACLU does the same, and I don't see them taking such heat from that side.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with Shik.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Don't get me wrong. I dig the idea behind the militia, that the common man can take up arms against invaders. But when that was written, that was a major necessity. Today....we've the ability to helo in 2 squads of special forces teams to pick off the enemy forces from a mile away one by one. Look at the 12th Amendment: back in 1804, the Electoral College was a damn happenin' & necessary idea. Today, it's not much needed thanks to instantaneous (or nearly so) communication. I'm fairly sure that if the Bill of Rights were written today, they'd be a lot different in some areas. Searches would be easier, double jeopardy would probably be out the door, the 11th Amendment would never fly, & "eminent domain" would be laughed out of the convention.

You are right, though...the ACLU DOES get a little overzealous at times, especially where prisoner's rights are concerned.

quote:

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As opposed, say, to the gated, high-security, armed-guard-patrolled hollywood liberal elite suburbs?

---

You come on out here my friend...we'll cruise Hollywood and other areas. I think what you will find that most of the gated communities are either north or south of Los Angeles and represent the 'white flight' that L.A. has expereinced over the years. Nor do I think you will find them particularly "liberal".

I've got one or two things to say to Omega in reply, but I have some work to do first.

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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Gotta agree with that. This has gone through, what, three subjects now?

"does anyone really feel that the threat of having the army billet a bunch of guys in there house is a problem? No, of course not."

I don't, either, but I still want a guarentee that they won't do it. It's one of those private property things.

"That's '...shall not be INFRINGED.'"

Oops. I did say "abridged", didn't I? Where did that come from, I wonder. Thanks.

"the 2nd Amendment prohibits only the national government from limiting the populace's right to own firearms"

If that were the case, it would follow that the first ammendment only applies to the fed, too. By that logic, any state could disallow anyone from practicing any given religion, or from speaking or printing whatever they please. This is obviously not the intent of the constitution. Your point is invalid.

I eagerly await Jay's new points to slaughter.

J/K

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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)

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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".

Wise, wise words.

And Omega, in the spirit of friendly debate, I will simply say that your choice of "slaughter" to rebut any points I bring to the table was poor at best. Do grow up.

Later, like I said earlier, I believe I will have some ideas that you can argue for or against.

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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns

*finds edit button*

There, that's better. I keep forgetting that you can't carry inflections over text. Didn't mean anything serious by it. Sorry for the confusion. My sense of humor can be a little strange(r) that late.

Shik:

"Fortunately, it's not my point, but the point of constitutional historians."

It doesn't really matter whose point it is. By my logic, it's invalid. Besides, I could find you geologists that support the strangest ideas, but that hardly means that they're valid. Even what the majority thinks isn't nesecary valid.

My reference to Sherman was towards his willingness to utterly destroy Atlanta and the other Southern towns he marched through in order to complete his objective.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi