posted
The point we are trying to make, Omega is that your history with Cuba is the cause of you not trading with them.
The government uses the rather tired 'castro is a monster line' to justify taking the hard line on the Cubans. The real reason behind the sanctions is linked to the fact that the Cubans threw American business off their island, and ye yankees wanted revenge.
Lets face it, govts don't care about human rights unless its convenient. In this case, its convenient to use it as a (somewhat lame) justification.
If you choose to believe that the USA is not trading with Cuban on moral grounds, then do so. You'll just be deluding yourself.
------------------ "More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!" - Ode to God.
posted
"If you choose to believe that the USA is not trading with Cuban on moral grounds, then do so."
But he doesn't. His reasons for not trading with Cuba are different from the US's.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
"If you choose to believe that the USA is not trading with Cuban on moral grounds, then do so. You'll just be deluding yourself."
Did I ever SAY that I believed that we weren't trading with Cuba on moral grounds? Would you people stop putting words in my mouth? I couldn't care less about why we're not trading with Cuba. Current foreign policy is completely and totally irrelevant to the hypothetical perfect foreign policy, which is what we're debating now. If there were NO embargo, I'd still hold this position.
Jay:
"No, my argument stands."
What argument? You mean the one that's completely seperate from what we're talking about?
"See, I can make pronouncements too."
Yes, but without any sort of logic behind them, they carry no weight, and only serve to reduce what little is left of your credibility.
Liam:
Sorry. Shouldn't have just taken their word for what they say is going on over there. Consider it retracted.
Ah, thank you. You have just single-handedly restored my faith in human intelligence beyond the level of a ten-year-old. Jay has a way of destroying it.
------------------ "To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
posted
Castro is a bad person and has done bad things.
Sounds pretty moralistic to me.
I'll try this from a different angel (something that the other side seems unwilling to do...pronouncements are such bully policy....in the T. Rooseveltian sence)
How long do sanctions stay on a given country?
Sanctions are being incrementally lifted against North Korea and good things are happening in talks with the South about reunification. So, after 50 or so years of the US saying "bad country, bad country" we make moves that are positive in nature. And good things happen. North and South Korea may soon become one and a very productive memeber of the community of nations.
Ok, Cuba. Different country, same sort of situation. We've kept Cuba on it's own...well at least out of the United States neighborhood...since the 60's. Bad country, bad country we say. Part of the reason we say that is the history we have with the island.
We see good things happening as we move to extend relations with N. Korea, we move to help Vietnam back into the community of nations...but not Cuba.
Omega's argumet goes something like: he's killed people, let him stay there till he rots...
The other side says, much like N. Korea, an open dialog might bring about good things, let's see what happens...the situation has been stagnant for too long. The situation has been stagnant for so long not that we aren't willing to trade with communist countries, or countries that do bad things...Burma ring a bell...but because of our hatred of Castro.
------------------ Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much..... ~C. Montgomery Burns
posted
"How long do sanctions stay on a given country?"
'Til their government changes out, at least.
"he's killed people, let him stay there till he rots..."
Hey, you got my argument right for once!
I'll put aside the fact that I never said whether I agreed with the idea of sanctions on NK or not, even though you seem to assume to know. Unless, of course, you're STILL on the wrong topic, which seems to be the case.
"much like N. Korea, an open dialog might bring about good things"
Except for the fact that the situations don't have all that much in common. NK could pose an actual military threat to us, but as far as I know, hasn't slaughtered any innocents lately. Their government has changed out since the last time they started a war. I'd have to do more research to see whether I support lifting sanctions or not, but at first glance, I'd say yeah, but keep an eye on their military. Completely different from Cuba.
Castro's still in charge. He still tramples the rights of his people. He, less than seven years ago, ordered the killing of fourty innocent people for no reason, including a dozen children. He hasn't changed. NK may have.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
posted
"My pronouncements have as much logic behind them as do yours."
Well, by all means, show us a little of it. I've completely spelled mine out. You'd do well to do the same.
And if you think my argument is illogical, then pick a freakin' premise and dispute it! I posted the whole thing step by step.
"Castro is bad and your argument flawed because you do not agree with me."
Uh, no. Your argument is flawed because you don't HAVE an argument, or if you do, you refuse to show it. Heck, you don't even know what subject we're talking about, apparently, as you think that the reason we don't trade with Cuba NOW has some relevancy, which is doesn't to the actual subject, being whether we should trade with Cuba AT ALL.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 30, 2000).]
posted
I'M going to type RANDOM words in all CAPS too! It's MAKES me feel bigger than YOU.
from your Newsmax article (all the news you need to know)
quote:There were several credible reports of death due to excessive use of force by the police. Members of the security forces and prison officials continued to beat and otherwise abuse detainees and prisoners.
Los Angeles...Police officers shoot 100 lb. homeless woman holding a screwdriver...
Los Angeles...Rampart Division: over 90 convictions are overturned after it comes to light that officers made up and planted evidence on suspected gang membres and lied their actions in reports and during trials. At least one officer goes so far as to shoot and paralyze a gang member, planting a gun on him after shooting the shooting...
Corcoran State Prison, California...guards allegdely pit inmates against each other in gladiator style combat...
Either we should stop trading with ourselves or stop thinking we're perfect.
It's called diverging opinions. I've showed you what I think, I know what you think. You've waved your dismissive hand. Big did-illy-deal. You seem to think I should say oh,oh...I'd better go run away. Well, I think your wrong and I blow my nose in your direction.
I disaree with your contention that Castro should rot and die with no hands reached out in peace to attempt to resolve the situation.
I've showed you, as well as others have, in several different ways why we should try and open a dialog with Cuba...I'll list a couple of them (but not limited to the following) since you can't seem to remember:
trade with Cuba offers a chance to bring it into the community of nations...
as sanctions are a limited tool of foreign policy, they can't in and of themselves change a government and an exploration of their necessity needs to be brought about from time to time. North Korea is an excellent example of how the limited lifting of sanctions has brought about some good things...
we don't trade with Cuba now, and some people dismiss the idea of trade with Cuba and never will because they hate Castro and many Americans remember the way that the revolution in Cuba took the island away from use by the United States...
but you keep coming back with the same old tired thing...
What's that sound, it's your mental masterbation. Have a ball....
------------------ Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much..... ~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited July 31, 2000).]
------------------ "Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine. "Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York "This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
Oh, and if I might make N.IRL/UK point... While the British army for the most part did conduct itself in a relatively professional manner, you can't deny that the discriminatory conditions imposed on Catholics prior to the Civil Rights movement of the sixties, Internment, and that little eency-teency massacre thing where supposedly the most elite branch of the British army shot civilians then refused to acknowlege making a mistake were rather abusive with regard to human rights.
The point Jay's been making is that very few nations can claim to have a clear slate when it comes to human rights. We either have to let politicians draw an arbitrary (and very fuzzy) line, above which the nation should trade with and below which it shouldn't, or trust the international body set up specifically to regulate this thing (the, *cough* UN, which HRH Omega hasn't mentioned yet) to impose sanctions on nations which are clearly abusers and to let the free market work on the others.
------------------ "When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?" -Mike Tyson
posted
Fair enough, preceeds Vietnam, but let's not go there.
The thing that got me was that they were referring to the situation in the present tense. And Shik was walking about keeping memebers of the IRA in prison, as far as I can tell. I'm confused as to how that's a civil rights abuse. Unless this is a freedom fighters thing. Nasty old Britian keeps Ireland apart, they take up arms to free their nation, Mel Gibson gets loads of historical facts wrong, blah blah blah.
Still, this is fun, eh?
------------------ "Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
Liam--
I was indeed talking about the way the British law enforcement agencies conducts their searches & holds people. However, that was not a condemnment of any sort.
I live on the convergence zone of 2 highly Irish areas: New York City & the "working class" areas of Connecticut like Bristol & New Britain & the like. Because of that, that Irish paper (What's it called, "The Voice" or something like that?) sells very well around here, & for years it always attacked the British methods of action.
Now, I don't really CARE what's going on. It doesn't concern me, although it makes great fodder for my wargames. The problem is that most people forget that there's one crucial difference between our legal system & that of about 98% of the Commonwealth: the burden of proof is on the ACCUSED for you guys--"guilty until proven innocent."
That one statement changes EVERYTHING. It gives the state a lot more leeway in things LIKE searches, seizures, arrests, etc. And so some people (Amnesty International for one) feel that this process is a violation of civil rights, that it's 1 step away from "The government says you're evil--get his shit!!"
Like Jay said--it's all about perception: until 1979, Iran was our friend. Until 1989, so was Iraq. Until the Camp David Accords, Egypt was on the "high risk" travel list. It's also about culture. Why does Russia keep getting leaders that give them the shaft? Because at heart, the entire nation is still at the social mentality of 13th-century feudalism. They "officially" change the song & dance routine--"Hey, we're into DEMOCRACY now!!"--& they get aid, trade, help from us. But go beneath the veneer & nothing's really changed at all. The people are still thinking like they were 50 or even 100 years ago, except instead of the Communists or the czars, they fear the mob.
This is why generalizations cannot be made.It's called "national interest." Our treatment of Cuba has long been used against us. It's time to let it go. Hell, Castro doesn't even CALL half the shots he's credited with. It's subdelegated now. And after he dies, do you really think Raul will succeed him? HELL, no. It'll be some Soviet-trained guy who minored in operations with the Russian mafia. watch...I figure about a year to 18 months after Castro's death, the island makes a complete turnaround & sends welcoming feelers to America.
------------------ "Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
OK, so you don't recognize the difference between people who WORK for the government doing dispicable things and the government actually ORDERING them to do those things. That's your mistake. And I would point out that when officers HERE are known to be breaking the law, everything nesecary is done to stop them. In CUBA, on the other hand, they apparently get away with it.
And perhaps you've never heard of emphasis? I'd use italics if I knew how.
"trade with Cuba offers a chance to bring it into the community of nations..."
OK, this is part of how this argument SHOULD be run. This is a pro of trading with Cuba. But it doesn't outweigh the con of the fact that it would help bolster an opressive government.
"as sanctions are a limited tool of foreign policy, they can't in and of themselves change a government"
That's not the idea. The sanction isn't supposed to help overthrow Castro. It's simply that trade would help BOLSTER his regieme, and we acknowledge that to be a bad thing. Therefore, we should not trade with him. Therefore, sanction.
"we don't trade with Cuba now, and some people dismiss the idea of trade with Cuba and never will because they hate Castro and many Americans remember the way that the revolution in Cuba took the island away from use by the United States..."
You keep saying this, and I keep telling you that it doesn't matter to this argument, and I couldn't care less. From this point, unless you have a REASON why the reason we don't trade with Cuba affects my reasons why we SHOULDN'T trade with Cuba, I will ingore any further references to it.
Tom:
The UN apparently allows trade with countries like Cuba and China, so if disallowing trade with abusive governments is part of its job, it's not doing it.
Shik:
"I figure about a year to 18 months after Castro's death, the island makes a complete turnaround & sends welcoming feelers to America."
One can only hope.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
posted
Shik: Holdonasecond! "Guilty until proven innocent"??? I think you're getting your wires crossed a bit. That's classical French criminal law, not Commonwealth. Hell, American criminal law was based on the English system, was it not?
Omega: Are you saying that you're are a better judge of human rights abuses then the UN? That your posts on this thread are more comprehensive than million dollar reports on abusive incidents undertaken by some of the most intelligent professionals in the world (and paid by pretty well every nation except the US)? Whew. Maybe the world would be a better place if you were the Secretary-General.
------------------ "When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?" -Mike Tyson
posted
It would seem that either I am, or that the UN has no power. When a country slaughters 2,000 of its own citizens, it is a human rights abuse. I don't give a darn whether the UN says so or not.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
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