posted
Yeah, but didn't they have Chieftans or some sort of Leader figure?
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[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited August 09, 2000).]
posted
I think that communism in its truest form is not really a form of government, it is a economic system in which there is no wealth. So having a chieftan, in a society with no wealth still doesn't violate the basic idea. right? i don't know, maybe i've just had too much coffee and am not thinking straight.
------------------ "Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly, if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
quote:Yeah, but didn't they have Chieftans or some sort of Leader figure?
Yes, only with a few of the western tribes (Plains Indians had warchiefs), and in most tribes (Seminoles, Woodlands, eastern tribes) there wasn't a absolute leader. People foraged and helped each other, shared their wealth, and basically acted like Lenin's idea of Communists.
You have to remember, Russia only came out of the Middle Ages in the 1860s (when Feudalism was done away with). There was a huge jump and painful transition to today, in which the country is still somewhat going through, to catch up with everyone else. Communism, or the latter dictatorship, was the quick answer.
Communism is only part economics. The commoners were supposed to own nothing, thus have no money or a free market, and be supplied with necessities by the state. The only true economic component of the theory was work communes, which failed early.
But back to the topic. Think of it this way: Chakotay is a communist .. "Our people believe in owning nothing, and we are all equal. And because of this, our family made pilgrimages to Lenin's tomb."
It almost reminds me of my Programming teacher last year, Mr. Tuv ... "All vood Russians visiit Lenin's tomb", "Today vee vill learn Meee-crosoft Veeseal Basic", "You get 'A', You get 'B', YOU! Aye, F!"
------------------ -Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
posted
Speaking of outlawing things, and narrowing the political spectrum, does anyone remember Mcarthyism? Or the fact that the communist party was outlawed the USA? Or did you conveniently forget?
------------------ "More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!" - Ode to God.
posted
It isn't now. We got better. They didn't. End of story.
**Disjointed data follows**
Incidentally, Native American communism, where it might have been said to have existed, didn't last long after the arrival of white folks. Wampum. Tribes in which your status was determined by how many horses you owned.
Some of the Inuit took communism to a bit of an extreme.. sharing your wife with a guest wouldn't go over well here, I think.
Of course, in the Inca Empire, Atahualpa owned ALL the gold.
------------------ "Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
posted
Again, I think that pure communism, by definition only deals with economic equality, social and political equality really is completely different. For example. Communism was the way Jamestown ran for quite a while, of course if failed there too, but John Smith was the leader. Everyone worked for the same amount of money (in this case, Food), even the head, Smith. This of course completely collapsed, as the rich Englishmen refused to work but were still paid. So a true communist society (not Marxist or Anarchist, or whatever) could still have different social classes. The workers, the leaders, the whatever. In any case, each class would be paid the same amount. That means economic equality. Of course social equality usually should come naturally as everyone is equally "rich". Ahh, but they rarely work.
------------------ "Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly, if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
posted
That's the first time I've hear someone use Communism and Jamestown in the same sentence. In the a'irly years of 1609-1612,13 Jamestown was a settlement full of idiot Englishmen who didn't know how to use all the food and clean water around them. They drank pond water and died (being noblemen, they didn't know of any survival tactics as "boil the water"). They didn't know how to farm, hunt, or make diplomacy with the Woodland Indiands and died. It was pathetic, to paraphrase a John Smith quote.
So the government was that of survival, and thus there wasn't one. Later on, as the Virginia (me home state) colony grew, people were tried to emulate England (where did ye think we got the idea to get African slaves? the British were doing long before us). And then, farther along, we have a democracy. No Communism there.
I think what you're getting at is communism is a system that works well outside organized society. Which is true.
quote:Lenin was essentially an imperialist with Marxist overtones
I beg to disagree. Lenin saw and knew more than what his situation made of him. The man was compassionate for the Russian people and dedicated to the romantic ideas of Communism, but is often overshadowed by the actions required of a turbulent political time.
The man was there when they kicked out the Czar (firmly closing the book on the Medieval Period) and then masterfully setup a system to put Russia on the fast track of modernization. Of course, things didn't go perfectly (he regretted Stalin on his death bed) but if the situation were run by any other man than Lenin, things would have been worse.
He was essential to Russia being where it is today, and not still back in Feudalism.
------------------ -Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
posted
Ah.....why did they ever kick out the Kaiser? Now all we have is flat-bread and rye bread. They don't taste as good. Ahhh....the poor old kaiser.
(On a more serious note....wasn't it the Tsar...or am I too tired?)
------------------ Efficiency is a highly developed form of laziness. - anon (...and boy am I efficient...) A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
posted
I believe Vanguard may have been thinking of Plymouth. It was communist for a couple years, and everyone quite nearly starved to death. People refused to work, instead stealing corn even before it was really edible. Thanksgiving started more as the last meal of condemned men.
------------------ "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
posted
Well, incidentally, they removed their Kaiser and put in Socialists, who dragged the country by its shoelaces through some of the worst years (The 1923 economic collapse and Franco-Belgian invasion of the Ruhr) until Streseman put things right, and Germany became one of the most prosperous nations in Europe by the 1929 crash. Indeed, unlike 20's America, Germany had a renowned social safety net including the first instance of government-funded seniors benefits and health care...
Then of course, the depression set in and the Germans got the hairbrained idea of vote extremism, the Socialists refused to form a coalition with the communists, and Herr Hitler squeeked in as "the chancellor in chains," who promptly Fuhrerified himself once Senile ol' Hindenburg kicked the bucket.
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
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