Misspelling. To rephrase: exactly what do you think would happen if we repealed the second ammendment?
Shik:
Sounds more like a strict Libertarian than me. Already stated my posit on weapons o' mass destruction. Funny anyway.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
YOU (personally) have no right to own a gun. You're too young. So how can we eliminate something you don't have?
That would be like threatening to have my Toyota towed.
(I don't own a Toyota)
=)
I can't WAIT to hear your answer to that.
But frankly, I don't want people to own guns because I'm sick and tired of reading of road rage incidents that end with gunshots and deaths. I'm sick and tired of reading of children getting shot by their young classmates (where do you think they get their guns, hmmm?).
QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE A GUN BECAUSE I DON'T TRUST YOU TO GO OUT AND GET DRUNK AND DECIDE TO SHOOT ME!
I don't trust you to pull out your gun and shoot me after I cut you off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway.
I don't trust you to keep a trigger lock on said gun so your kid can't pick it up and decide to blow my kid's brain out (and, Omega, you did say earlier in another post that you would leave a trigger-lock unlocked, BTW).
Enough reasons?
------------------ Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 30, 2000).]
posted
"I can't WAIT to hear your answer to that."
It's sad and pathetic when someone thinks they've made a legitimate point by nitpicking.
Did it live up to your expectations?
"But frankly, I don't want people to own guns because I'm sick and tired of reading of road rage incidents that end with gunshots and deaths. I'm sick and tired of reading of children getting shot by their young classmates (where do you think they get their guns, hmmm?)."
Oh, so you'd rather read about ten times the number of murders you read about now? You keep ignoring the fact that private citizens use guns two MILLION times a year to prevent crimes. And that's from the FBI. Show me that the same number of crimes are COMMITTED with guns every year that couldn't be committed otherwise, and then you might have a point.
"QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE A GUN BECAUSE I DON'T TRUST YOU TO GO OUT AND GET DRUNK AND DECIDE TO SHOOT ME!"
And I'm called paranoid...
If I was drunk, I wouldn't be able to shoot the broadside of a barn, you moron. Judgement isn't the only thing that alcohol affects. Go look up how many alcohol-related gun fatalities there are in a year. You also might want to look up exactly what alcohol does to your CNS. It reduces the quality of your judgements, slows reaction time, and lowers inhibitions. Basically, I'd only shoot you if I REALLY hated you in the first place, and I tend to pity the ignorant, not shoot them.
"I don't trust you to pull out your gun and shoot me after I cut you off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway."
We'll ignore the fact that that'd be nearly impossible. Again, go look up the number of deaths like that. This is another liberal falacy: perfectly normal people suddenly become maniacs when you put a gun in their hands, and then revert when you take it away. The world doesn't work that way. Get used to it.
"I don't trust you to keep a trigger lock on said gun so your kid can't pick it up and decide to blow my kid's brain out"
Again, how many kids get killed by other kids with guns every year? I'm talking real kids, like, under fourteen, not under 22. And how many of those involve kids that aren't smart enough to unlock the gun? Why don't you actually do some RESEARCH, and find the truth for yourself, instead of just accepting what you're spoonfed?
"Omega, you did say earlier in another post that you would leave a trigger-lock unlocked, BTW."
Yet again, you're assuming that I'd be irresponsible enough to leave the gun where the kid can actually get to the thing, which I wouldn't. Regardless of what you've been indoctrinated with, the majority of people are sane, responsible people who care about their children.
"Enough reasons?"
There wasn't a shred of reason in your entire post. Correct that and get back to me.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
And of those two million (and where in the UCR did you find that? 'cuz I looked through it, and I didn't see that number anywhere - be more specific), how many were lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to scare off other lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to commit illegal deeds?
Where would you hide your gun, Omega? Under the bed? Under a pillow? I know, maybe on the top shelf of your closet. I doubt you'd buy a gun safe (take too long to open?) if you wouldn't utilize a trigger-lock. This is what I'm talking about -- irresponsibility with gun ownership.
It would be very possible for me to cut someone off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway. I don't drive on 695 often, but I've cut people off at that speed before (and had the same to do to me). It wouldn't be hard for someone to follow me where I'm going and shoot me. Maybe you've heard of something called Road Rage? Yes? Rational people + Automobiles = Irrational people. And you could attack me with anything -- a flashlight, a club ... but if you've got a gun, that would probably be your weapon of choice, yes?
And if you're drunk, and we're standing in the same room together, I have no doubt you could hit me. And you yourself admited that it did lower a person's judgement, so how can you be so sure that you wouldn't want to kill me? Have you ever been drunk? If not, you can't really say what you would or would not do. Everyone reacts differently to alochol -- some get violent, some get mellow. You might very well try and shoot me, and even if you DIDN'T hit me, just pulling the gun out would be enough to prove my point.
How many kids under 14 get killed? Well, look at that shooting in Arkansas or Alabama a year or so back. I forget the name of the school, but as I recall, it was an elementary school and the shooters were well under 14 themselves. Where do you think those children got their guns from? The big-bad-crack-dealing black man on the city corner? No, mommy and daddy's closet shelf.
Oh, and its not "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns."
It's: "If you outlaw guns, only Republicans will own guns."
------------------ Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
posted
"where in the UCR did you find that? 'cuz I looked through it, and I didn't see that number anywhere - be more specific"
Then look harder. Everyone else here seems to have heard it.
"And of those two million, how many were lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to scare off other lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to commit illegal deeds?"
What exactly do you mean, lawfully licenced? I don't have to have a licence to own a gun. 'Least, not unless Gore gets elected. Under any circumstances, how is this relevant?
"Where would you hide your gun, Omega?"
Likely in a firebox on the top shelf of my closet, with the key in my nightstand drawer. I might think of a better arrangement, though. And that's only when I wouldn't be using it to teach my kid to fear the thing. The best way to keep a kid from using a gun is to teach the kid to fear it. Works for oven's, don't it?
"Rational people + Automobiles = Irrational people."
Again, the world doesn't work that way. The people have to be irrational in the first place to actually chase someone down like that.
"And if you're drunk, and we're standing in the same room together, I have no doubt you could hit me."
Do you have any clue how hard it is to hit a moving person from across a room when you're sober? 'Bout the only way I could kill you while drunk is if you were standing two feet away, and you'd have to be a moron to get anywhere NEAR that close to a violent drunk.
"And you yourself admited that it did lower a person's judgement, so how can you be so sure that you wouldn't want to kill me?"
You really need to pay attention to what you're arguing against. I'd have to hold a good bit of animosity toward you in the first place, to want to kill you when my inhibitions and judgement weren't in play.
"Have you ever been drunk? If not, you can't really say what you would or would not do."
Not true. I know the effects of alcohol on the CNS (unlike you, I might add). I know my own mind. Therefore, I can predict how I would act under the influence of alcohol. Being drunk doesn't make one's actions totally random.
"Everyone reacts differently to alochol -- some get violent, some get mellow."
Based upon their own personality and temperment.
"How many kids under 14 get killed? Well, look at that shooting in Arkansas or Alabama a year or so back."
That doesn't answer the question. Yes, school shootings happen on rare occasion, but that has absoltely nothing to do with the number of children killed with guns each year.
"Oh, and its not "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns."
It's: "If you outlaw guns, only Republicans will own guns.""
Do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounded?
I have a suggestion for you, Jeff. For the sake of your own reputation, go check out a few books on logic and debating at your local library. You need to learn how to think in a coherant manner. You NEVER respond to the actual point made. You NEVER do your own research. You inflict ignorance of the topic on yourself, expect others to keep you informed, then deny the information supplied. And THEN, having no knowledge of what you're talking about, proceed to debate the topic anyway!
Either make some pretense at actually trying to make a coherant argument, or back off. Your only other option is to continue making a fool of yourself.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
So translated, less than 7% of crimes are committed with guns, a total of around 250,000. Compaired to the 2,000,000 crimes PREVENTED with guns each year, I'd say that guns have far more positive effect.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
That first link links to a page which says that OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT FIGURES are 80,000 ... NOT TWO MILLION.
Government figures would be the UCR. Two million my ass.
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Okay, lets start with the oven/gun analogy. Your child will fear the oven ...
a) because it is off and is not hot b) because it is on and hot and they burn themselves c) because they like to sleep on top of it d) because you tell them to
"B" is correct! A child fears what causes them pain. Ergo, if the oven is hot, and they touch it, they'll tend not to repeat the experience.
A child will fear a gun ...
a) because it is too big for them to hold? b) because you shot them in the foot to teach them the same lesson burning 'em on the oven did c) you tell them to d) you pinched them with it when releasing the clip
Hmmm? Maybe they'll fear it if you tell them to, but they probably won't fear it till you shoot them ... if you're using the rationality that a burning oven will make them fear it. Capishe?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict how you'd react to alcohol. Ask anyone who has gotten drunk. I've known people who have tried to pull swords to break up parties ... sheeesh. Look, if you know yourself, that is all well and great ... but you add alcohol, and its a totally different story. It really is. And if you've got a 10-round clip, and you start squeezin' that trigger, you've got ten chances to hit me ... and I don't much care for those odds.
How is a firebox a better option than a trigger lock?
(DAMMIT! Why can't I get these links working? Oh, right, I'm an ignorant, uninformed liberal ... thanks, Omega...)
Now tell me armed men committing road rage aren't dangerous.
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 31, 2000).]
posted
I notice a lot of blanketing by idea here, this negates a lot of decent points.
Not EVERY person that suffers road rage and is armed is going to kill someone.
Although the chances increase. Like some of the cops that beat or shoot a person that has them running the streets and roads at 90 mph. This is a case of road rage, but not every cop does it.
Omega, thinking that you can predict what you will be like after having a few is wrong. When I was drinking I would be a great guy sometimes, a crying drunk sometimes, and my evil twin would visit sometimes. And the way the day went before I hit the bar didn't matter. Alcohol will twist a mind in to something that you have never seen before. It will also cause you to turn a vehicle in to a weapon of mass destruction. Which is a danger we face more daily than getting shot. Which needs more or better control? Maybe a People Control is better than Gun or Alcohol Control!!!
------------------ Stupid bastards and religious freaks, so safe in their castle keeps...
posted
I just re-read the opening post for this thread. I don't want the Government involved to awful much more in my life, I have given them a third of it already, and would like as much of the rest of it for myself and my family. So, other than properly enforcing existing laws, I don't think that the next Administration needs to interfer anymore.
------------------ Stupid bastards and religious freaks, so safe in their castle keeps...
posted
"Okay, lets start with the oven/gun analogy."
You've never had kids, have you, JK? I never burned myself on the stove. I simply feared the thing because my parents told me what'd happen if I touched it. And if I'd tried to, a good swat to the butt would have set me straight.
"b) because you shot them in the foot to teach them the same lesson burning 'em on the oven did"
Sir, if you can infer that from what I said, you are truely a moron.
"How is a firebox a better option than a trigger lock?"
Have you ever seen anyone try to disengage a trigger lock? I could get the box down and open it in twenty seconds, in the dark, with sweaty hands. To disengage a trigger lock under those conditions is, for all intents and purposes, impossible.
Ritten:
"Like some of the cops that beat or shoot a person that has them running the streets and roads at 90 mph. This is a case of road rage, but not every cop does it."
I feel compelled to point out, though it's completely irrelevant, that this is exactly what lead to the whole thing with Rodeny King.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
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