this cap shows the Chief from 'Valiant', the only non-O'Brien noncom insignia i recall seeing (all other TNG-DS9-VGR era noncoms have blank collars, unless anyone spotted insignia i missed.
odd also: was she a CPO trainee (!?) wearing the yellow and gray cadet uniform?
BTW, i found the DC comic (Who's Who in Star Trek #2, Apr 1987) with the movie era rank chart (on topic! yay!).. its a mess, Spike let me try and scan it next week
it shows
Ensign - the correct ensign pin
Ensign First Class (!) - the ensign pin with pointy tops rather than flat-top
Junior Lieutenant - the correct Lt JG pin
Lieutenant - the correct Lt pin
Lieutenant Commander - correct Valeris LCDR pin
Commander - correct pin
Captain - correct pin
Fleet Captain - Captain pin variant with a solid center (rather than 3 bars) and curves rather than angles leading to the top/ bottom decorations (the FASA commodore pin)
Commodore - the correct Fletcher commodore pin
Rear Admiral - triangle center pointing down with three evenly spaced arrowheads pointing in (similar to an upside down version of the Dynamics VADM pin
Vice-Admiral - same arrangement with a chevron in the center rather than the RADM triangle
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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digging through comics.. i'm sure that in the post 1984 DC comics where they used these uniforms there were plenty of erroneous (or simply odd) insignia.. i'll start flipping pages..
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quote:Originally posted by Spike: blue = 100% correct red = terribly wrong
Personally, I feel Fletcher got it wrong, since he made up ranks for no apparent rationale, and instead use the real world US Navy rank system. So Blue = completely in accord with what an ignorant costumer made up, Red = not fully in accord, due to other ignorant people making up their own systems. Darkwing
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: contrary to the reference, i was under the impression that the rank Seaman or Able Seaman was just referred to as 'Crewman' (with 'Able Crewman' possibly being the longform) in Trek.. Simon Tarses was referred to as Crewman, and I even think I caught a 'Crewman First (or Second) Class' in VGR somewhere.. "Good Shepard" or "Equinox" (although the latter might have just been in the novelization, my memory of the actuall episodes == muy hazy).
Able Seaman is a Merchant Marine rank, indicating a sailor with some skills, as opposed to an Ordinary Seaman. Seaman, Seaman Apprentice, and Seaman Recruit are the comparable US Navy ranks. In comparison, an Able Spacer ought to be a junior civilian space-crew member, and a Spacer would be a junior military crewmember, although Paramount seems to prefer Crewman for the equivalent of a Seaman, and, based on Tarses' first-class comment, perhaps also for petty officers. Then, too, back in WWII, an E-3 was a Seamn first-class, so maybe not.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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AFAIK Able Seaman is the Royal Navy equivalent of a USN Crewman. Other navies (Canada, Ireland, Australia) also use this rank. So, I don't think your criticism is justified.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fletcher made pins for ranks that have existed since navies existed. What's irrational about that? Am I missing something?
No, he didn't do any research when he whipped up those insignia ( and no, I'm not suggesting he should use the butterbar, silver, railroad tracks, oak leaves, eagles, stars, crows, chevrons, and anchors from today. But he could have used a more consistent mix of terms). Let me know if the following is enough or if you still have questions.
E-1 Seaman Recruit (Able Seaman is a merchant marine rank) E-2 Seaman Apprentice E-3 Seaman E-4 Petty Officer third-class E-5 P.O. second-class E-6 P.O. first-class E-7 Chief Petty Officer E-8 Senior CPO E-9 Master CPO (notice no MCPO 2nd class or any other fictitious deriviative thereof?)
W-1 (unused in Navy, used in other services) Warrant Officer W-2 - W-5 Chief Warrant Officer
O-1 Ensign (please note, there is no such thing as an ensign j.g or ensign first class, and there never was) aka ENS O-2 Lieutenant junior grade aka LT j.g. O-3 Lieutenant aka LT O-4 Lieutenant Commander aka LCDR O-5 Commander aka CDR O-6 Captain aka CPT Fleet Captain has ben referred to onscreen (Pike), but it's unclear if that's a rank or billet. I think of it as Starfleet's version of today's usage of commodore) O-7 Rear Admiral Lower half (nee commodore) aka RADM O-8 RADM upper half O-9 Vice Admiral aka VADM 0-10 Admiral (Chief of Naval operations/ CNO) ADM
Check this site out for a graphic display. It's old, so does not include the new rank of W-5.
QM2 D.W. Ewing, USN (that's E-5 Quartermaster, as in enlisted navigation specialist. The naval usage precedes the army's misuse of the term to indicate a supply clerk).
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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quote:Originally posted by Spike: AFAIK Able Seaman is the Royal Navy equivalent of a USN Crewman. Other navies (Canada, Ireland, Australia) also use this rank. So, I don't think your criticism is justified.
first, just a minor point. The term crewman is only used in Trek, AFAIK. I have never heard it in the real world. next, yes, the RN uses able and ordinary ratings, but Roddenberry based the rank structure on the US Navy, not the RN. It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os. Oh, and the Aussie and Brit sailors I've met didn't use the "able" or "ordinary" qualifiers, instead identifying themselves by rate and rank, such as Boatswain's Mate seaman (BMSN) or just seaman, rather than saying Ablebodied or Ordinary Seaman Smythe. Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os.
Why? If, when the Earth governments got together and became one, they decided that, for instance, the US Officer system was best and the British Enlisted system was best, why shouldn't they combine the two? If not only for practical reasons (the US enlisted system has far too many grades IMHO) then for political reasons. Or do you think that when Earth united the US government just said "you are all going to have to adapt to what we do", and everyone else agreed? Neither of these is likely, IMO.
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quote:first, just a minor point. The term crewman is only used in Trek, AFAIK. I have never heard it in the real world.
Sorry, I meant Seaman.
quote:Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
You can't blame Fletcher for these ranks. He didn't create this bullshit.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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quote:Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
You can't blame Fletcher for these ranks. He didn't create this bullshit. [/QB]
I'm sorry, I got the impression from your initial post that Fletcher created these ranks. So, all he did was create the insignia for a rank system he was given, then? Or am I still misunderstanding? And at whose doorstep can we lay that messy system?
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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Fletcher's scheme for enlisted men is: Master Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Petty Officer 1st class Petty Officer 2nd class Able Seaman
Ensign 1st class was created by DC and MCPO 2nd class by Doug Drexler.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os.
Why? If, when the Earth governments got together and became one, they decided that, for instance, the US Officer system was best and the British Enlisted system was best, why shouldn't they combine the two? If not only for practical reasons (the US enlisted system has far too many grades IMHO) then for political reasons. Or do you think that when Earth united the US government just said "you are all going to have to adapt to what we do", and everyone else agreed? Neither of these is likely, IMO.
Mixing systems gets messy and confusing. Also, the modern ranks were adopted in order to be familiar to the viewers, and since it was an American show, it was very America-centric. In reality, by the time we get to that era, we'll probably have a totally different set of names for the ranks. Using that, however, risks alienating lazy viewers who don't want to have to translate everything. "Frak" is okay, since f**k can't be used on tv, but "millicentons" make the viewers scratch their heads and change channels.
But if you really want to do it, go all the way. Don't use all of one component and all of another for the other component. Mix it all up, like Battlestar Galactica, and make the viewers learn your new system, instead of using an extant one.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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