Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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A little late, so this thread probably won't generate much discussion, BUT NO-ONE CAN STOP ME FROM STARTING ONE ANYWAY! NYAH-NYAH!
*What use do the Romulans have for dilithium? Their ships aren't powered by M/AM. Duh.
*The E-E's being pursued by the most heavily armed warship in the quadrant, so it enters a nebula that interferes with communications and sensors. Duh.
*Why not just fly the aeroshuttle from place to place? Why bother with a buggy? Duh.
*The alien buggies: who was behind their wheels? Why did they attack the crew of the Enterprise, aside from scaring off the landing party?
*The Romulans take their "matter of internal security" rather lightly by sending two totally outclassed Warbirds to deal with the situation. Duh.
*B-4 has an apt name. Before, get it? Hah-hah-hah. Duh.
*Where did B-4 come from, anyhow? If he was built by Dr. Soong, why was he never mentioned by the good doctor? Where and when did the Romulans find him? No reference whatsoever to Data's OTHER brother/prototype, Lore. Duh.
*Highly tangential observation: why does Shinzon have to wear that shiny latex overcoat 24/7? Is it to prevent us from identifying with him? I was kind of, erh, pertubed by the creaking every time he so much as twitched a muscle.
*What happened to the Romulan military after Shinzon's coup? Surely Romulus isn't defended by Canada, like Earth? Duh.
*DS9 presented the notion that Romulus and Earth became loose allies during the Dominon War, which is thrown out the window and adds to the very detached feel Nemesis gives off. Duh.
*How and where did the Remans construct the Scimitar (in complete secrecy no less)? Presumably, their galactic position isn't the most ideal, what with them being (former?) Romulan slaves...
*If the Remans are such formidable shock troops, why was the Viceroy's boarding party so easily neutralized? Duh.
*And while we're at it, where did the Big Cheese suddenly get the idea to take a stroll down a Jeffrey's Tube?
*Why did Dina Meyer's character, who was in on Schinzon's scheme and nonchalantly assasinated the entire Romulan senate for him, later get cold feet? No fury like a woman scorned, huh?
*On the assasination itself: I suppose the senators thought they were impervious to harm on the floor of the Senate, but I have to believe there would have been stricter security measures in place. If it's that easy to effect a change in the Romulan government, I'm amazed that it hasn't become routine.
*Echoes of Spock's death and eventual resurrection when Data uploads his memory to his new found twin before heading off to die. It's as if they've stuffed Spiner in a glass booth with a sign reading "Break Glass In Case Of Emergency". Duh.
*Why are the Romulans eager to go to war one day, then making historic peace overtures the next?
*Other unaddressed points: Worf's previous courtship with Troi (not to mention his ill-fated marriage to Dax), Janeway's promotion to admiral, Spock's underground unification movement.
I expected Nemesis to wrap up loose ends, as it was billed as TNG's last installment, but it raised more questions than it answered. The film is, more than anything, a vehicle for Picard & Data to strout their stuff. Someone apparently decided they're the only characters worth developing...
Nemesis is also basically a rehash: In Generations, Picard fights a madman to stop the activation of a deadly device which will cost countless lives. In Insurrection, Picard fights a madman to stop the activation of a deadly device which will cost countless lives. In Nemesis... I think there's a pattern emerging here.
The trick is to avoid walking the beaten track, and to be more or less consistent with What Has Gone Before: Trek has a 40 year legacy to uphold, after all. Nemesis falls short on both counts. It suffers from a substandard, contrived plot that consists of a confusing and arbitrary sequence of highlights from previous movies, woven together by a storyline which bears no relation to the Star Trek universe As We Know It.
For instance, Shinzon reveals that he wants to avenge his childhood slavery by wiping out the population of Earth. Why? Shouldn't his beef be with the Romulans? Furthermore, how did Shinzon take leadership of the Remans? How did he guide them to their independence? Shinzon was cast into the Reman mines to die, but somehow became a commander during the Dominion war... so how did he obtain that military commission? Bare essentials like these shouldn't have been left dangling.
IMO, Nemesis was one Trek chasm after another, with lots of smaller canyons in between. The film hinged on the audience's belief in one basic premise: that Shinzon is a clone of Jean-Luc Picard. Unfortunately, Tom Hardy doesn't even remotely resemble him. He tries to mimic Stewart's stance and speech patterns, but fails, which only undermines his efforts as Evil Twin.
Even RAMBO works on some intellectual level... it's disappointing that a member of the Star Trek franchise does not.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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quote:Originally posted by Cartmaniac: A little late, so this thread probably won't generate much discussion, BUT NO-ONE CAN STOP ME FROM STARTING ONE ANYWAY! NYAH-NYAH! ...>SNIP<... *Why did Dina Meyer's character, who was in on Schinzon's scheme and nonchalantly assasinated the entire Romulan senate for him, later get cold feet? No fury like a woman scorned, huh? ...>SNIP<...
I do believe that Shannon Cochran's character (Senator Tal'Aura) was the one responsible for planting the device that dustifyed the Senate, not Commander Donatra. All Donatra did was try to seduce Shinzon because evidently she was trying to raise (in) the ranks....
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
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Cartmunchkin: "...Picard fights a madman to stop the activation of a deadly device which will cost countless lives. In Nemesis... I think there's a pattern emerging here."
I hate it when you're right! ;.
I mostly watched it for the ship battles, and I wasn't disappointed. Well, they could've shown the task force or some ships in drydock in the ending, but this movie had the best and most realistic battle scenes ever!
Weak starboard shields? Turn her around, hide the chink, that's what wet battleships do. Fire photons? Sorry, they actually were depleted, it happens when you shoot them a lot. That's what they're there for.
And the flight patterns, finally some pilots who know how to use impulse engines, compared to them slow-ass, inanimate Khan- or Kruge-battles, sheesh.
Other than that, I agree with the points in your list.
PS: That new way of showing the E-E's transit to Warp? Niiiiice, no stretchmarks or blue rainbows, just a big fat kick in her ass and a sonic boom on top of that.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
FG: heh, I knew something didn't quite add up to Donatra's almost un-Romulan demeanor.
Nim: absolutely, those were nice touches, I've never seen a more convincing space battle. Space has three dimensions at last! Major kudos to the SFX department.
posted
I agree with several of your points, (this film did not score high with me ) but there are also a number for which a counter-response automatically comes into my head:
quote:Originally posted by Cartmaniac: *What use do the Romulans have for dilithium? Their ships aren't powered by M/AM. Duh.
According to Rick Sternbach's not-quite-canon-but-close-enough article on Romulan propulsion systems from Star Trek: The Magazine, they still use dilithium for regulation and focusing of power. (See diagram on third page.) Aside from this, there's also the issue of dilithium being a valuable commodity for interstellar trade.
quote:*The E-E's being pursued by the most heavily armed warship in the quadrant, so it enters a nebula that interferes with communications and sensors. Duh.
Tee hee...they were hiding...
quote:*Why not just fly the aeroshuttle from place to place? Why bother with a buggy? Duh.
Agreed. Very lame and un-cool.
quote:*The alien buggies: who was behind their wheels? Why did they attack the crew of the Enterprise, aside from scaring off the landing party?
Agreed. Not to mention that the whole thing was a glaring Prime Directive violation on the part of Picard and company.
quote:*The Romulans take their "matter of internal security" rather lightly by sending two totally outclassed Warbirds to deal with the situation. Duh.
Well, the Valdore-types seemed to be pretty powerful, it's just that the Scimitar was even more so. I doubt that the Romulan fleet had anything that could match it. Plus, I can't remember exactly but weren't Donatra and her cohorts acting sort of on their own rather than under orders from higher-up?
quote:*Where did B-4 come from, anyhow? If he was built by Dr. Soong, why was he never mentioned by the good doctor? Where and when did the Romulans find him? No reference whatsoever to Data's OTHER brother/prototype, Lore. Duh.
Agreed.
quote:*Highly tangential observation: why does Shinzon have to wear that shiny latex overcoat 24/7? Is it to prevent us from identifying with him? I was kind of, erh, pertubed by the creaking every time he so much as twitched a muscle.
Agreed. "Because it looks kewel and menacing and evil-like."
quote:*What happened to the Romulan military after Shinzon's coup? Surely Romulus isn't defended by Canada, like Earth? Duh.
I thought the deal was that he got a lot of the bigwig military dudes on his side beforehand (those who were hungry for conquest of the Federation) and they supported him in the coup.
quote:*DS9 presented the notion that Romulus and Earth became loose allies during the Dominon War, which is thrown out the window and adds to the very detached feel Nemesis gives off. Duh.
Agreed, sort of. It would have been cool to go more into the post-war politics of it all, but OTOH it *does* make a large measure of sense that the Romulan government would return to the status quo after the Dominion was defeated, seeing as the Romulans only entered the alliance in the first place in order to protect themselves from a perceived threat. Once that threat was neutralized, they wouldn't have any *reason* to remain allies with the Feds. This was alluded to by the mention that Romulan ale was once again illegal, after having been legal during the tenuous (and ultimately short-lived) alliance.
quote:*How and where did the Remans construct the Scimitar (in complete secrecy no less)? Presumably, their galactic position isn't the most ideal, what with them being (former?) Romulan slaves...
Shinzon simply said it was built "on secret base," which could conceivably be just about anywhere, but somewhere on Remus seems likely.
quote:*If the Remans are such formidable shock troops, why was the Viceroy's boarding party so easily neutralized? Duh.
Well, the heroes *do* have to win, don't they?
quote:*Why did Dina Meyer's character, who was in on Schinzon's scheme and nonchalantly assasinated the entire Romulan senate for him, later get cold feet? No fury like a woman scorned, huh?
She simply realized that Shinzon was a madman and decided that supporting him was not in the best interest of either herself or the Romulan military. Basically, she wasn't willing to go through with it because she knew it was a bad idea. So she switched sides.
quote:*On the assasination itself: I suppose the senators thought they were impervious to harm on the floor of the Senate, but I have to believe there would have been stricter security measures in place.
Well, when it's one of the senators *themselves* who is planting the device, there ain't much you can really *do* about it...know what I mean?
quote:If it's that easy to effect a change in the Romulan government, I'm amazed that it hasn't become routine.
Well, at least according to Shinzon in the film, it *is* fairly routine. He told Picard that regime changes are frequent on Romulus.
quote:*Echoes of Spock's death and eventual resurrection when Data uploads his memory to his new found twin before heading off to die. It's as if they've stuffed Spiner in a glass booth with a sign reading "Break Glass In Case Of Emergency". Duh.
Agreed. Lame-O! Not to mention unoriginal. And unnecessary, given that this is rather firmly the last TNG movie...
quote:*Why are the Romulans eager to go to war one day, then making historic peace overtures the next?
To quote the Klingons: "They have no honor!" Romulans have always been portrayed as fickle, sneaky, and simply concerned with their own interests.
quote:*Other unaddressed points: Worf's previous courtship with Troi (not to mention his ill-fated marriage to Dax), Janeway's promotion to admiral, Spock's underground unification movement.
Partly agreed. The Troi thing was resolved long ago, IIRC, and Janeway's promotion was expected given what we saw in "Endgame" (VGR)---but Worf's DS9 connections and Spock's campaign, yes.
quote:I expected Nemesis to wrap up loose ends, as it was billed as TNG's last installment, but it raised more questions than it answered. The film is, more than anything, a vehicle for Picard & Data to strout their stuff. Someone apparently decided they're the only characters worth developing...
Nemesis is also basically a rehash: In Generations, Picard fights a madman to stop the activation of a deadly device which will cost countless lives. In Insurrection, Picard fights a madman to stop the activation of a deadly device which will cost countless lives. In Nemesis... I think there's a pattern emerging here.
The trick is to avoid walking the beaten track, and to be more or less consistent with What Has Gone Before: Trek has a 40 year legacy to uphold, after all. Nemesis falls short on both counts. It suffers from a substandard, contrived plot that consists of a confusing and arbitrary sequence of highlights from previous movies, woven together by a storyline which bears no relation to the Star Trek universe As We Know It.
For instance, Shinzon reveals that he wants to avenge his childhood slavery by wiping out the population of Earth. Why? Shouldn't his beef be with the Romulans? Furthermore, how did Shinzon take leadership of the Remans? How did he guide them to their independence? Shinzon was cast into the Reman mines to die, but somehow became a commander during the Dominion war... so how did he obtain that military commission? Bare essentials like these shouldn't have been left dangling.
IMO, Nemesis was one Trek chasm after another, with lots of smaller canyons in between. The film hinged on the audience's belief in one basic premise: that Shinzon is a clone of Jean-Luc Picard. Unfortunately, Tom Hardy doesn't even remotely resemble him. He tries to mimic Stewart's stance and speech patterns, but fails, which only undermines his efforts as Evil Twin.
Largely agreed. I thought Hardy was dead-ringer for a young Picard, though.
quote:Even RAMBO works on some intellectual level... it's disappointing that a member of the Star Trek franchise does not.
Well, that may be going just a bit too far, but I share your disappointment nonetheless.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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I agree on just about all your points, and I hope we'll get some restoration on the Nemesis DVD. But that still won't make it a good movie. My scriptwriting teacher got me started on a rather enjoyable exercise some time ago. He basically said, if you think you can do better, do it. Don't just sit there bitching about it like an armchair quarterback (to use a bit of American slang).
So, I now have the shooting scripts for Nemesis, right alongside Star Wars Episodes I, II, and VI. With all of these films three minutes of bulleted notes already resulted in better movies, and the full re-writes are in progress. Nemesis is actually turning out to be a movie I'd like to see in this version. Pity it'll never get made.
I have the wedding scene fully restored, with Worf there on leave from his ambassadorial duties. Like he was going to miss Troi's wedding. They may no longer be together, but it seems the sort of thing he'd do. No dune buggy. No shuttle. No android scavenger hunt. Janeway is a Rear Admiral (one pip less -- more reasonable, and has precedent in Kirk's TMP rank and position). Shinzon gives Our Heroes a good-faith gift when they arrive of Lore, discovered in a Tal Shiar laboratory during the coup. Their attempts to turn him into something they could control resulted in "brain damage". And so on, and so on...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: My scriptwriting teacher got me started on a rather enjoyable exercise some time ago. He basically said, if you think you can do better, do it. Don't just sit there bitching about it like an armchair quarterback
Sounds fun. I did something like that to Return of the Jedi back in the 1980s, and TMP some years back as well (the biggest fault with that film, actually, is that it sets up character arcs and forgets them...all except for Spock).
I think you'd be better off dropping Lore and the whole idiotic twin android subplot. There are better ways to accomplish the same things.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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Oh, yes, totally agree. Lore is just there as a bit of misdirection. While we're worrying about how he's going to come back from his retarded state and take over the Enterprise, Shinzon reveals his true colours, etc.
And I'd be interested in knowing how you altered Jedi...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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Originally posted by Cartmaniac: A little late, so this thread probably won't generate much discussion, BUT NO-ONE CAN STOP ME FROM STARTING ONE ANYWAY! NYAH-NYAH!
*What use do the Romulans have for dilithium? Their ships aren't powered by M/AM. Duh. Who says that all of their ships run on the singularity drive? I always thought that the singularity was the reason the warbird was mostly empty space. *The E-E's being pursued by the most heavily armed warship in the quadrant, so it enters a nebula that interferes with communications and sensors. Duh. Well they figured: it worked for Kirk...
*Why not just fly the aeroshuttle from place to place? Why bother with a buggy? Duh. No good damn reason, I'm sorry to say.
*The alien buggies: who was behind their wheels? Why did they attack the crew of the Enterprise, aside from scaring off the landing party? They were told to harass the Enterprise crew after they found the planted B4 android to "make it look good". These losers might have had contact with other worlds for a long time but no technology of their own: tat means no Prime Directive violation for our heroes and it explains why they're so pissed to see off worlders too. *B-4 has an apt name. Before, get it? Hah-hah-hah. Duh. I put that one right up there with such great terms as "turoblasers" and "superlaser" from Star Wars or "Borg" (get it! They're cyborgs!).
*Where did B-4 come from, anyhow? If he was built by Dr. Soong, why was he never mentioned by the good doctor? Where and when did the Romulans find him? No reference whatsoever to Data's OTHER brother/prototype, Lore. Duh. I never thought the Romulans found him! They made him from plans stolen by that "vulcan" ambassador. That's why he was imperfect and had the big Matrix-y data port on the back of his neck. *Highly tangential observation: why does Shinzon have to wear that shiny latex overcoat 24/7? Is it to prevent us from identifying with him? I was kind of, erh, pertubed by the creaking every time he so much as twitched a muscle. Never worn a latex shirt I see.... *How and where did the Remans construct the Scimitar (in complete secrecy no less)? Presumably, their galactic position isn't the most ideal, what with them being (former?) Romulan slaves... many of the Reman population were likely used in the Romulan shipbuilding process and they may serve as the Romulan Corps of Engineers. That would give the Remans the know-how to build the Scimitar after scoring some good Dominion tech during the war. *If the Remans are such formidable shock troops, why was the Viceroy's boarding party so easily neutralized? Duh. The Enterprise hauling ass away from Romulus came a bit sooner than planned for and those Reamns just had to skip breakfast.... *Echoes of Spock's death and eventual resurrection when Data uploads his memory to his new found twin before heading off to die. It's as if they've stuffed Spiner in a glass booth with a sign reading "Break Glass In Case Of Emergency". Duh. Ug. Yes. *Why are the Romulans eager to go to war one day, then making historic peace overtures the next? They wrote Rule Of Aquisition about "Declaring peace: it confuses the hell out of your enimies." I personally would have made B4 a back-up copy that Lore made of himself in case the Borg screwed him over and I'd have made him Shinzon's partner. It also could have given data's death more meaning.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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I can't be stuffed doing my own point-by-point opinions but... I agree with nearly everything you've said.
Nemesis in MHO is the worst of the TNG movies and close to being the worst of all of them. YES I'm including STV:TFF in that cause it's beautiful score saves that movie.
Nemesis was a big boring episode.
Oh and the point about the buggies v aeroshuttle usage - I thought it might have been because these 'bad guys' were still pre-warp - and they were just matching their tech?
B4 - one of the three early Data's that Juliana Soong mentioned? Why not just use Lore?
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I can't be stuffed doing my own point-by-point opinions but... I agree with nearly everything you've said.
Nemesis in MHO is the worst of the TNG movies and close to being the worst of all of them. YES I'm including STV:TFF in that cause it's beautiful score saves that movie.
Nemesis was a big boring episode.
Oh and the point about the buggies v aeroshuttle usage - I thought it might have been because these 'bad guys' were still pre-warp - and they were just matching their tech?
B4 - one of the three early Data's that Juliana Soong mentioned? Why not just use Lore?
I agree. It was if they wrote it saying "now we can't possibly write any references to past movies or episodes, because it might confuse non-trekkies" (hence the cutting of the Worf, Crusher and Wesley bits, I presume), which is a pretty damn stupid way to write a star trek film.
In fact, it's so bad I think I'll consign it to the part of my brain where Insurrection currently sits.
The only things in it I consider canon are the shiplist and the promotion of Janeway.
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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Lore was disassembled by Data (implied) in "Descent II." Obviously Data has him in a storage locker on Hallclosetron IV somewhere.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
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I know. I have a line in here to the effect that after disassembling Lore's bits, Data sent them to Bruce Maddox to work with and the Tal Shiar snuck in at some point and snagged Lore while leaving a copy in his place. Since Brucie never reactivated Lore's head he had no reason to suspect a substitution. I kind of turn everything on its ear, with Lore in the movie and what amounts to a Romulan-made B4 in storage.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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Cartman
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"Romulans have always been portrayed as fickle, sneaky, and simply concerned with their own interests."
But they've also been portrayed as fence-sitters who only rear their heads if and when it suits their purpose. Opening a dialogue w/ their arch-nemesis (get it? hah-hah! *sigh*) doesn't jive with their isolationalist tendency of letting other powers pull the strings for them... neither does starting an all-out war.
[ May 13, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
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) but there are also a number for which a counter-response automatically comes into my head:![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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