Jake and Ben Sisko got from Earth to DS9 in "Defiant" within 13 days, as inferred from dialogue. Any more time than that would make jaunts to Earth from DS9 (Past Tense, Homefront, Tears of the Prophets) unfeasible.
"The border" was mentioned during Soldiers of the Empire, which implies the Cardies and Klingons do touch. And the CU and KE had a historical incident involving some nebula that was mentione in WotW--A Border dispute?
The Breen attacked the Klingon homeworld a long time ago, implying fairly close distances. Breen space is within three days travel time of the Badlands. (Strange Bedfellows or thereabouts)
It's probably possible to go between Cardassia and Romulus without going through the Federation, as these two had a clandestine relationship in the past.
The Miradorn have stopped by DS9 once. No idea how far away they are, but obviously not years and years away.
Doesn't some okudagram from Insurrection show the Son'a near the Crab Nebula or some other real galactic phenomena?
The Talarians border the Federation, and based on the chronology of s5 TNG, are probably fairly close to the Klingons/Rommies.
Mintaka (real star) was in Who Watches the Watchers. Based on ethnicity of inhabitants, might it be close to Vulcans/Romulans. Likewise, some real star whose name escapes me was in "The Last Outpost," implying close proximity to the Ferengi.
------------------ The above post was mulled-over, composed, and posted during time Tom would have better spent on his plethora of homework and homework-related exercises. Now don't you feel special?
posted
The star where the Ferengi stole the energy converter is Gamma Tauri. I've tried using this in the past to locate the Ferengi (it places them to the "south", around the direction of Rigel when you look at a top-down map), but it doesn't really agree w/ the DS9TM map (now become canon).
As for Mintaka, it's even worse than Rigel. It's closer to 1500ly away...
------------------ "The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood." -"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
posted
Ok So Rigel was right - no, no I wasn't getting 'testy' thanks for clarification
About the Talarians - OK this is getting confusing -- according to The Encyc - they place it on the 'WEST' of the Federation closer to the 'Western part' of Cardassia and the Federation (Cause I think the 'eastern' part of Cardassia is where DS9 is).
Were the Talarians mentioned in Season 5 TNG? I thought that Suddenly Human was Season 4 - filmed before Family but shown after it.
I need Clarification of Talarians Tarellians, Tamarians, Terallians, Tallrians etc etc.
I know at Least "Tamarians" or The Children of Tama from "Darmok".
Who have the four arms... as per Amarie in "Unification" and "Liasons" and - the cut scene with Martha Hackett in "All Good Things..."
The Batris from "Heart of Glory" was "Talerian - acording to Picard I think - "Far from home"
Andrew
------------------ "Who wouldn't be the one you love Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
posted
Some random comments on various posts above:
The "border" mentioned in "Soldiers of the Empire could refer to the fact that the Klingons conquered Cardassian planets in "Way of the Warrior" and dug in. There would be a border between these holdings, and the Cardassian Union. Admittedly, the Dominion forces supposedly drove the Klingons out of former Cardassian space a few episodes earlier, but it would stand to reason that there would be worlds taken by the Klingons just outside the former Cardassian Union as well. These would not be connected to the rest of the Klingon Empire directly.
The earlier clash between the Cardassians and the Klingons took place in Betreka nebula and lasted for 18 years. But it's not told if the said nebula actually touched the territories of either side. Both could have been fighting for expanding their holdings into previously unclaimed space, by sending long-range expeditions - so there wouldn't necessarily be a common border.
The Breen/Klingon clashes could have taken place across extremely long ranges. Worf relates to the disappearance of an entire expeditionary armada during "the Second Empire" - complete "disappearance" would probably not be possible if the distances were short, and the loss would instead be known as "destruction".
The Romulans can access just about anybody through just about anybody's space, by using their cloaked ships. It is implausible for any empire to erect a sensor network that could spot cloaked ships across their entire border surface of thousands of ly^2.
And in more general terms, even if somebody claims an area of space doesn't mean others cannot travel through it with ease. It takes active effort to keep others away from your turf - dense sensor nets of millions of sensor drones, hundreds of starships to challenge intruders, constant patrols. Most races might not consider it worthwhile to go for hermetically sealed borders, but would instead strive to repel attacks when they reach their destination and the enemy is in a single, predictable location, clustered around the target star system.
Further, some races might prefer to expand their holdings by moving gradually from system to system. Others would simply skip uninteresting systems as long as nobody was challenging their advances. The former approach would lead to compact, powerful and well defended empires, while the latter would produce huge but "porous" ones, empires that would not have "borders" in the traditional sense at all.
Mintaka is indeed beyond Rigel, which suggests it is not near Vulcan or any other "UFP core world". If the vulcanoids on Mintaka were transplanted, this was probably done by an advanced race - and probably those can travel across greater distances than the "mundane" races.
The Ferengi could have been spotted first near Gamma Tauri because they preferred to practice their piracy far away from their home turf, so as not to alarm their local clientele.
posted
I reckon that one of the three races to have 'disruptors' Romulans, Klingons and Breen as per "Generations" might be because they are all relatively close to each other... well we know the Rommies and the Klingons are... And the presence of those dead Romulans on the Armagosa observatory - surely means that Armagosa was close to Romulan Territory... Romulans don't go penetrating the Federation that often... I would say close to the Klingons too...
Andrew
------------------ "Who wouldn't be the one you love Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
posted
I'm all for the model where everybody is close to everybody else, so that the core of the Federation actually is just a tiny 100ly bubble surrounded by similar bubbles for Klingons and Romulans and Cardassians and Breen. The UFP then expands from between these bubbles into a multi-tentacled thing that reaches all the way to Rigel and even Deneb - but the essence of the UFP sits between all the enemies, and the outer holdings are just sparsely inhabited and poorly explored outmarches.
Romulans shouldn't actually be ANYWHERE except inside their Neutral Zone - their every excursion out of that Zone is supposedly illegal. I have no problem with them using their cloaks to freely travel everywhere in the neighborhood, though. When we see a Romulan ship, it's actually a good bet that we are far away from Romulan space!
Perhaps there's a nice little loophole in the Neutral Zone treaty: if a Romulan ship is observed entering the Zone, this is an act of war - but if it isn't observed, then war need not be declared even if the ship later is witnessed outside the Zone!
posted
Well the only answer I guess is that The Armagosa Observatory... is/was outside of Federation Space. Of course the Rommies must be able to go into neutral space
Andrew
------------------ "Who wouldn't be the one you love Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
posted
I've never gotten the impression that the Neutral Zone completely surrounded Romulan space.
------------------ "Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?" -- M. Doughty
posted
Why would it, unless Fed space completely surrounded Rommie space, which we know it doesn't? I mean, why would the Federation-Romulan Neutral Zone lie between the Romulans and Klingons, or anywhere else where the Feds and Roms don't border?
------------------ "The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood." -"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News
posted
Well, the RNZ was formed back in 2161, after the Roms lost a war to Earth. They went unseen for the following century, during which the UFP is known to have visited such distant places as Rigel or Canopus or even Deneb.
It would only stand to reason that the RNZ was originally agreed to be of roughly the size of the Earthspace of that era, but not significantly larger than that (the loser of the war wouldn't get *that* much in concession). Later expansion would then have allowed Earth/UFP to completely surround the Romulans, who clearly didn't put up a resistance since we know no contact was made during the century of 2161-2265.
In contrast, it is unlikely that Romulan territory grew at all between 2161 and TOS - Starfleet ran wargames at Canopus, which in all likelihood is on the "backside" of Romulus if the rough maps we have seen in the episodes are any indication (Romulus supposedly lies "east" of Earth, and Canopus is "far east" - 200 ly or so, when the nearside Romulan border must be closer than that to allow for "First Contact" travel times). So Starfleet should have been able to note if the Romulans expanded in a direction away from Earth, and should have taken action. And as said, we already know Starfleet did no such thing.
We don't know if the Romulans have expanded out of the RNZ or renegotiated its size and shape *after* TOS. In any case, their ships seem to move freely outside the RNZ nowadays, and actually did so in DS9 and Voyager references ("Paradise", "Eye of a Needle") even before they formed the current military alliance.
The Klingon NZ probably never enclosed either the KE or the UFP, but was just a surface erected between the empires where they touched. But the Romulan NZ could logically be a bubble that fully enclosed the RSE ("Balance of Terror" even explicitly states that it separates the planets Romulus and Remus from the rest of the galaxy, as of 2265, which would seem to support the assumption of a full bubblelike enclosure).
Even if the RNZ completely surrounds the RSE, the UFP need not touch that RNZ from every side. Parts of the RNZ could border "empty" space, and movement across those parts would still be theoretically forbidden even if Starfleet wasn't there to enforce the treaty. Other parts of the RNZ could border on former (vintage 2161) "empty" space that actually is part of the Klingon Empire now, and again Starfleet would be unable to prevent movement across that stretch of the Zone (or to prevent the constant border wars that apparently rage between those two empires).
posted
Data describes the Neutral Zone in "The Neutral Zone" as a buffer between the Romulan Star Empire and the United Federation of Planets... I'm thinking that there is probably some sort of disputed area between the Klingons and Romulans too.
Also, Even though Fed systems might be 'behind' the RSE - the RSE space might be above or below - and so the Fed space would be unbroken - not going "around"
Or that might be a thin part of the RSE with the rest of the Empire faning back out into the Beta Quadrant...
Andrew
------------------ "Who wouldn't be the one you love Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
posted
I thought you might all want to know how work progresses:
- I finally got around to fixing the errors that have cropped up in my parametric equations for the Alpha Quadrant powers, since they will be my starting point.
- I'm now currently creating a huge grid (15000 ly X 15000 ly @ 10 ly/pixel), with a circle signifying basically where the Federation will be, and vectors pointing from Earth to basically where the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians should be. I'll post it as soon as I'm done with it, so that everyone can argue *exactly* where minor powers (such as the Tholians, Gorn, Miradorn, etc.) go.
- Once I finish the grid, I'll try to superimpose real stars on it. I'd really like to get permission from Christian (from the ST Dimension) to use his listing, but I'm reluctant to ask. Bernd and Boris seem to know him, is there anyway either of you two could ask for me?
------------------ "Not so fast, Space Clown! My time-space manipulator has assembled an army of invisible cavemen to block your reverse polarity ray!"
- Future Man, Curses, Space Ghost: Coast to Coast.
posted
Okay, here's an idea... Let's say that, after the Terro-Romulan War, the neutral zone was established to completely contain Romulan space. This lasted until around the time of the Khitomer Accords (we know there were Romulans involved there, per ST6). Perhaps the Romulans got a deal in the treaty where the neutral zone was reconfigured to only span the Federation border. This opened up some space unclaimed by any major power, and the Rommies were able to expand. All their expansion would have been done between ST6 and "The Neutral Zone", by which time they were a fairly large empire.
BTW, if anyone's interested, I think Romulus might be located around the star 107 Piscium. It's of the same stellar type as 40-Eridani-A, and fairly close to it. Might be worth considering...
------------------ "Numerous painful experiences can be caused by having (and especially using) a large penis." -J. Ralf Lenz, president, Large Penis Support Group
posted
Would the Romulans have been a part of the Khitomer Accords, though? After all, they had been part of a conspiricy to make sure the things were never written. I'm not so sure either the Federation or the Klingons would be that willing to let them participate after that.
------------------ "While it is true that 15% of home accidents are caused by large penis related incidents, only a small number have ever been known to be fatal."
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