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Saying Braga "pushed out" Taylor and Piller is, well, so completely untrue that I think there's a general statement to made about the ills of Trek fandom here. I just won't make it.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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my secret theory is that Jeri Taylor retired because, one morning, she woke up and realized she was a hack. i wish...
i hope she knows.. everyone else knows it.
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quote:Originally posted by The_Tom: Saying Braga "pushed out" Taylor and Piller is, well, so completely untrue that I think there's a general statement to made about the ills of Trek fandom here. I just won't make it.
The_Tom, I think you have a problem when you read a QUESTION as a STATEMENT. Changing the context of a message within one post... and you had the gall to refer to my question when talking about the ills of Trek fandom! Gah!
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
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I think the very fact that people sanely come up with suppositions like that reflects rather poorly on the whole online fanbase.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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posted
Yes, but you're one of the main offenders when it comes to defending Enterprise from any sort of criticism (no matter its validity) whatsoever. And since Enterprise is now the only game in town, Trek-wise (apart from a movie that everyone will have seen in six months' time, which may be the last of its kind), its fate is inextricably linked with that of Brannon Braga. In much the same way as anyone who finds fault with Enterprise is immediately labelled a Braga-hater by you and your ilk, you now find yourself compelled to defend Braga no matter what. Why, we're even seeing creeping Voyager-revisionism popping up here and there.
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I'd refute that. The main problem that Tom and others (incuding me) isn't that the criticisms are about Enterprise, it's the fact that they are about Braga and Berman. Criticising them for current Trek incarnations without acknowledging that Berman at least is also responsible largely for TNG, which everyone loves, as well as DS9. They aren't attacks against the plot of episodes, or the characters, or the writing. They are attacks against two people, one of whom seems to get it in the neck only because of
a/ an argument with Ron Moore (the fans favourite), and b/ a statement about continuity that is usually taken wildly out of context.
Criticism of things Braga has actually done (like writing "Threshold") is fine, but when you get to the point of people suggesting shadowy conspicies by him in order to take over the world, something is wrong. Every comment against Enterprise seems to come with a nasty piece of cynacism.
Case in point, Andrew's first post in this thread, where he made the perfectly valid point that some parts were earily similar to what's been said at the start of every other Trek season: "We're going to be exploring this character". But it then ended with that potshot at TPTB for (apparently) getting rid of all the DS9 staff, which was just unecessary. Captain Mike made a comment about "purging" the DS9 staff, which was also slightly ludicrous.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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It works both ways, Vogon Poet. How many times haven't the people who defend Enterprise, et al, been labeled as being unobjective and sucking up (or taking it anally from) Berman and Braga? Everyone here who likes Enterprise has offered criticism of Enterprise at various times through the first season. Insisting that "our ilk" resorts to nothing more than rabid protectionism of those in charge is misleading and grossly inaccurate.
Those defending Enterprise have tended to be on the aggressive side, but that's a natural response to what many times is just pointless carping for the sheer joy of stirring trouble. How many posts haven't began, ended, or simply consisted of "Enterprise is just B&B creating Trek in their own image," "This is another step to making TOS noncanon," or "Enterprise is noncanon." All of those statements are made without bothering to examine the issues objectively, and consequentally the realities have to be presented time and time again. How many times don't we need to reminded that Ron Moore wrote some stinker episodes, that Michael Piller gave us Insurrection, and that many of Voyager's best episodes were written by Brannon Braga?
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I for one am not into B&B-Bashing. However, many of the problems I have with Enterprise are about the very concept and execution of the show, and the two gentlemen in question have had a lot to do with that (even though it's not just them, and they have done good things on occasion). It becomes very difficult to discuss such general problems - as opposed to specific ones like "the plot of episodes, or the characters, or the writing" - without B&B cropping up occasionally, no matter how anyone tries to avoid it.
They are the producers, and are the people most credited with the direction a show takes. How much criticism of B5 ultimately gets aimed at JMS? Quite a lot, although his writing of many of the scripts for that show (and the crummy dialogue that often resulted, for instance) didn't help in that case.
Personally, I don't care anymore. There was a time when criticism was acceptable round here, but now instead we have the attitude that it's "just pointless carping for the sheer joy of stirring trouble." Why, I've even seen the ultimate cop-out be put forth - "if you don't like it, don't watch it." Well, I haven't been: Enterprise is no longer a show I go out of my way to watch. I think it is an inferior product, and it has raised my estimation of DS9 (I'm on record as not being one of DS9's bigger fans) considerably.
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Yes, but who takes credit for the entire Babylon 5 universe, good or bad? Who is universally recognized as its creator, producer, muse type? It isn't Harlan Ellison.
I suspect I fall into the "please Misters B, force your terrible culture-destroying toxins down my virign throat" camp, but I'd be interested in a post from you, Lee, explaining why you don't like the show. This is partially because I am interested in your opinions in general, and partially because I can trust you, and people like you, to say "element X is defective for reason Y," and so on, rather than "Which Enterprise episode did you fall asleep during?" and "Time for Archer to get a talking dog?" Topics which I have not made up.
But I've yet to see it. At the same time, I recognize that I've yet to see a post really outlining what someone thinks is good about the show. So, I issue a challenge. I, as someone who has generally been quite satisfied with Enterprise, am going to sit through some repeats and make a list of things I like, if someone who on the whole is unsatisfied will do the same with things they don't like. Then, at the end, we can compare and contrast.
And fight to the death with sharpened sticks.
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posted
Oh, joy, the old standby excuse about acceptable debate not being accepted here. I guess we'll soon be resorting to calling each other Nazis and Communists next, eh?
There is a lot of debating going on about Enterprise, and fortunately a good portion of it is being conducted by reasonable, rational, and objective people. These are people who can cite fault with none of the series adhering to a consistent travel time scale rather than the people crucifying Enterprise for doing it while giving the other series writers a free pass.
On the other hand, there is a lot of pointless carping going on. As much as you might find it being dismissive on my part, it's the reality. Some people have overlooked facts in order to bash Berman, Braga, Enterprise, Voyager, what have you. A recent example is joke Braga made in an interview that riled some people up because they neglected to read closely enough that it was a joke. Not to mention, that there are posters who cannot help but make snide remarks just for the sole purpose of reminding us that they hate whatever or whoever.
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quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Oh, joy, the old standby excuse about acceptable debate not being accepted here.
Which is exactly the case. You seem to be going to a lot of trouble to deny my right to not like this TV show. Why, I could take this personally. I might even have to trot out my old standby line that some of my critics are sad overweight losers who, without their precious TV show, would have to actually face up to real life. Now, that wouldn't be very nice, would it? Because someone whose opinion I care about might take offense at it.
quote:There is a lot of debating going on about Enterprise, and fortunately a good portion of it is being conducted by reasonable, rational, and objective people.
Or "the people who agree with you" for short.
quote:These are people who can cite fault with none of the series adhering to a consistent travel time scale rather than the people crucifying Enterprise for doing it while giving the other series writers a free pass.
So we can't attack such errors on Enterprise without acknowledging all previous such errors on other shows? Well, we attacked them at the time, when they were new, nonetheless.
quote:On the other hand, there is a lot of pointless carping going on. As much as you might find it being dismissive on my part, it's the reality. Some people have overlooked facts in order to bash Berman, Braga, Enterprise, Voyager, what have you.
I don't like the show. I say so. You like the show, so you dismiss my opinion as "pointless carping." And what's this? Nice little list there - "Berman, Braga, Enterprise, Voyager." These are all topics where criticism is now verboten? We're not allowed to criticise the show not only for the producers, but for the shows neither?
quote:Not to mention, that there are posters who cannot help but make snide remarks just for the sole purpose of reminding us that they hate whatever or whoever.
Reality check, Siggy, EVERYONE here does that. But is it not allowed where the things you like are concerned?
As for Simon's challenge, I'm interested. But any opinion I state will be endlessly deconstructed word by word in search of semantic error (which will then undermine my whole argument, apparently), and I'm not sure I can be bothered. Even this little contretemps is getting a little tedious.
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I think you're being a little unfair to Siegfried, who isn't necessarily talking about this particular discussion.
I mean, yes, there are scary fanboys, and scary anti-fanboys, and so on and so on. But, I mean, when it comes to our core group, as it were, I don't get those vibes from anyone who posts about Enterprise, for or against. I think those of us who like the show have perhaps had our defenses stuck in a permanent on position by the over-reaction from certain quarters. So when Siegfried talks about zealous anti-Bermanites, he isn't suggesting that Berman is off limits for criticism, but rather those few who use the name like a curse word, and think that's more than enough to prove any point.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'll just point out that my commentary had absolutely dick all to do with the merits or lack thereof to be found in Enterprise or Voyager or Mission: Impossible 2. Call them good, great, shit, I don't care.
What does tick me off is when alleged commentators get personally abusive and accuse individual producers of being just-plain-bad-people. That's, well, in grannyspeak, bad manners. And at the risk of being labeled an B&B cocksucker, I think there's little room for any kind of personal criticism of anybody involved in Trek given the fact that nobody here is remotely qualified to pass judgement on their character.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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quote:Why, I could take this personally. I might even have to trot out my old standby line that some of my critics are sad overweight losers who, without their precious TV show, would have to actually face up to real life.
Excuse me? Would you mind telling me how making a personal attack on my weight has anything at all to do with this?
quote:Or "the people who agree with you" for short.
No, people who honestly do not like Enterprise for whatever reason and who can frame their concerns in a civil discussion without the need for attacking someone's weight.
quote:Well, we attacked them at the time, when they were new, nonetheless.
Even if that is the case, it is unfair to insinuate that this is a phenomenom unique only to Enterprise. Yeah, the writers and producers are being lazy and unrealistic in terms of the universe in which the show is set, but it's an unfortunate condition that has been shared by everything labeled as Star Trek.
quote:I don't like the show. I say so. You like the show, so you dismiss my opinion as "pointless carping." And what's this? Nice little list there - "Berman, Braga, Enterprise, Voyager." These are all topics where criticism is now verboten? We're not allowed to criticise the show not only for the producers, but for the shows neither?
Please reread what I have written. I have said driveby postings consisting of nothing more that "B&B are raping Roddenberry's cremation urn" are the pointless carping. I know you have a dislike for the plots and creativity of the show. You have expressed that before in ways that make me respect your opinion. Nothing is a forbidden topic in Star Trek, it's just annoying when one person (and it doesn't matter if it's Braga's oral buddy or the guy urinating in his coffee pot) feels that short "Entepise sux" post is sufficient or helpful for a discussion.
quote:Reality check, Siggy, EVERYONE here does that. But is it not allowed where the things you like are concerned?
So, because everyone else is doing it that's okay? No, it isn't. Yeah, I have done that in the past, but it is something that I'm doing my damnest to stop. I don't care if you like what I do, but I will and do respect everyone's opinion if they attempt to make me understand his or her perspective.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
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I'm with Simon here. I haven't been coming to this forum, mainly because I haven't wanted to be spoiled about the show. When I have though, the criticisms have in the large majority of cases been about the tinniest, minutest silly little details that did get ignored on other Trek shows. And those criticisms tend to come with snide little comments too. When people start posting that they want the Daedalus class to appear and run rings around Enterprise (the ship), then it's hard to take them seriously. I mean, the Daedalus-class? You couldn't come up with a more ugly ship design if you got the Normay-class and shot it with ugly torpedoes.
I'd just...like to see some actual genuine criticism of the show. Not of the "I want it to run 3 seasons and then the ship to blow up or the Romulans to start a war with the explosions and stuff!" variety. Actual criticisms. Are the characters not being developed enough? Are they not taking enough advantage of the 22nd century setting? Are they handling the temporal cold war well? Are you waiting for Dean Stockwell to have a cameo? Stuff like that.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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