posted
While I think we only know of 12 Connies, I believe there were plenty more than that. And while some people think the Excelsior replaced the Constitution, I believe that it was actually the Ambassador that replaced the Constitution--- with the Excelsior filling in a brand new role that Starfleet had just created. I would say the same thing for the Galaxy, it fills in a new role and doesn't replace the Excelsior or Ambassador, while the Sovereign replaces the Excelsior. On the docket next would be a brand new role, and then the replacement of the Ambassador.
As for how many there are [Ambassadors], plenty. I would suggest that however many Constitutions you think there are/were the number is bigger. Not necessarily 2x, but I would say at least 50% more.
As for why we never saw them. The odds of running into any specific class besides the workhorses is extremely rare [those workhorses being the Oberth, Miranda, Excelsior, and maybe Nebula]. Of course it would make sense to see other vessels unless you consider the facts of the situation. The Enterprise was performing it's duties within a limited span of influence. Within that area there might have been other vessels [we see them occasionally on the displays], but the Enterprise may never have contact with those ships. And the ships within that area would also be limited to only a two or three Ambassadors [period]. The numbers of that class, based on it being started in 2318 and continuing even into 2340's still limits the amount of ships that could have ever been built to a few hundred at the most, but I feel 150 is a more realistic number. You're talking about one or two per 5 sectors, when a ship-on-the-go [like the E-D] probably never covered more than 2 sectors a year [unless it was moving between border areas (for a while it was closer to the Klingons, then closer to the Romulans, then finally they ended up near the Cardassians)].
I can't stand it when someone says the Ambassador was a limited run, when we know for a fact that we've never seen even half of Starfleet on screen. [Now, someone is going to bring up the statements on the fleet from Wolf 359, and I want you to shutup now. The only explaination I can give for that is that it was a Fleet, not the Starfleet... might have even been the 1st fleet which would have been very important as the homeguard]. I can't stand it when someone says the Ambassador isn't around anymore--- they use the same type of arguements that people started to use after the E-D was destroyed to say that the Galaxy Class was being retired and the Sovereign Class was replacing it... OY!
I need to go, I've ranted enough...
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
posted
Just when I thought this thread was over...
Two points about J's argument:
1. What role did big, multi-role starships serve? Explorers. What were Connies, Excelsiors, Ambassadors, and Galaxies said to be? Biggest of their time, and used for exploring. Hence, they were all of the same role and purpose, Explorers.
2. Forget Wolf 359, what was that, a dozen ships onscreen, tops? Think about the various major battles from the Dominion War. We never seen a single Ambassador onscreen. There was at least one at Wolf 359, but not a single one seen in the whole of DW AFAIK. I'd wish for there being a lot more of them, though. They're very pretty ships.
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posted
For the record, I think that the ships in the "graveyard" scene of Wolf 359 represented the ships tha the Borg had tractored for assimilation or something. Objects in motion, and all that; the other 30 ships were either blown up entirely (Saratoga) or their wreckage just kept on going once the Borg were done with them (Excelsior-Melbourne, Bonestell, etc.). That should tie up where all the other ships were...
Back to the Ambassadors. There has never been, and will never be a definitive fleet size. Anything we speculate wil never be truly substantiated, even in the course of an episode. I agree that the Ambies are probably the true successors to the Connie exploration mission, but that their numbers were still probably small; if not due to onscreen evidence, then because of their generally accepted mission as frontline explorers in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: Just when I thought this thread was over...
Two points about J's argument:
1. What role did big, multi-role starships serve? Explorers. What were Connies, Excelsiors, Ambassadors, and Galaxies said to be? Biggest of their time, and used for exploring. Hence, they were all of the same role and purpose, Explorers.
The same role the Galaxy eventually had: Defense in times of conflict and limited exporation (as a class)in times of peace. I imagine the Ambassador and Galaxy classes were used as explorers mabye 70% of their operational lifetimes at most and as troubleshooters within the Federation the rest of the time. Theses are the Federation's Big Guns and they'd want them handy in case of trouble. Eventually the newer, more powerful classes free up ships like the Ambassador to really explore: that's why the Stargazer was out making exciting First Contact missions while the Ambassador's were used for patrols like the "C" was. It's really the only way I could justify ships like the Stargazer being a explorer when Ambassador class ships were available too.
[ May 30, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
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posted
No sleep and Pakled level typing skills can make for "intresting" posts at times. Better?
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quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Mojo WAS going to do some kickass pre-TNG warbirds. I only wish I coulda seen the skteches for that one - he said they were plenty cool.
If there's an SOTL calendar for next year, Mojo isn't on it yet.
Mark
Do you think he'd give us a look at one?
Did he give his reasons for not doing another Calendar?
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by David Templar: Just when I thought this thread was over...
Two points about J's argument:
1. What role did big, multi-role starships serve? Explorers. What were Connies, Excelsiors, Ambassadors, and Galaxies said to be? Biggest of their time, and used for exploring. Hence, they were all of the same role and purpose, Explorers.
On point 2 really quick... yes, Wolf 359 is forgettable.
Point 1. I disagree with you. While each of them filled a role of exploration they did it differently and sometimes not at all. The Constitution was the first exploration vessel, and because the Feds knew absolutely nothing about exploration dangers it wasn't able to fulfill that role completely, but was capable of holding it's own in battle. The Excelsior was the learning process from the Constitution, plus the hope of faster travel via transwarp. The Ambassador was more heavy cruiser than explorer in both design and use-- I imagine the Ambassador stuck in defensive roles while other ships like the Constellation were doing the exploration [as someone else has already suggested]. The Galaxy Class does even less exploration than the Ambassador sticking more to the duties of a good-will ambassador to friendlies/allies/indifferent states, and serving in the role of a battlecruiser when necessary. So yes, the same general term may apply, but in extermely varying roles, which is what I meant. It seems that Explorers are built to be able to go out and stay for long times, like Voyager did [and that one ship from DS9's "Sound of Her Voice"] but it seems they don't all do that.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The same role the Galaxy eventually had: Defense in times of conflict and limited exporation (as a class)in times of peace. I imagine the Ambassador and Galaxy classes were used as explorers mabye 70% of their operational lifetimes at most and as troubleshooters within the Federation the rest of the time. Theses are the Federation's Big Guns and they'd want them handy in case of trouble.
True, but I wouldn't have exploration so high. I mean look at the E-D it was stuck doing more diplomacy than exploration, had it lasted into the war it would have also had more combat than exploration IMO.
quote:Eventually the newer, more powerful classes free up ships like the Ambassador to really explore:
Like the Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre, and Norway each capable of fulfilling the same defensive roles as the Ambassador, on it's level if not higher.
quote:that's why the Stargazer was out making exciting First Contact missions while the Ambassador's were used for patrols like the "C" was. It's really the only way I could justify ships like the Stargazer being a explorer when Ambassador class ships were available too.
It's a good justification too.
As for two other comments: Undoubtedly the Ambassador's numbers during TNG would be significantly lower as a direct result of the Cardassian Conflicts. The destruction or near destruction of the 7th Fleet could also explain why we never saw an Ambassador. 1) We all know that no matter how many Ambassadors tehre are they would be limited in number. 2) That limited number would likely mean that unless Starfleet saw it necessary to deploy a significant portion of the Ambassadors to that area of space they would exist in little numbers or none at all for the war effort.
Owing that originally the Ambassadors wouldn't have been allowed to go on the long-term exploration missions they should have, then later they would be. This limits even more the amount of Ambassadors that would have remained within the area to be used for defensive.
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
posted
I still like the idea that a lot of the Ambassadors were just out on deep space exploration. I cannot believe Starfleet could have possibly recalled all of its starships for the War, especially if these ships were on the other side of the Federation or at some location that happened to be 2 or more years outside of the Federations defended space.
-OR-
Keep in mind too, that we only really saw or specifically heard of 2 or 3 of the battle fleets that participated the war, which is only 1/3rd of the known number of fleets. Sure its strange that we did not see any Ambassadors in the retaking of DS9, but consider how many Galaxies we saw! They very much could have had the Galaxies and additional fodder (Exc, Mir, Akira's) on the front line fleets, like we saw, and very well could have easily had the Ambassadors as the big guns behind the Federation lines. Seeing as for all the Galaxies on the lines, there couldnt have been too many behind the lines, leaving a void the Ambassadors very easily could have filled. Again, at least 2/3s of the known fleets we not even seen, if even mentioned. There is a LOT of room for the Ambassadors to be fit into the picture unseen.
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Many Ambassadors may have been tld to maintain their position if they were on the far side of Fed space exploring and could not return within a couple of month's time. In the New Frontier books, Peter David has the Ambassador class Excalibur ordered to stay out of the fighting along with several other ships and crews as a failsafe in case the Federation fell, those ships could continue a gurillia campaign and potentially rebuild the fleet. Might explain why those pansys on the Enterprise E (or any Soverign or Prometheus for that matter)were nowhere to be found in the battles.
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posted
I still think that the Ambassadors were Explorers through and through. Plus, using the Enterprise-C as a measuring stick isn't necessarily a good thing - Starfleet's Enterprises have always been in a "best of the best" sort of positon within the fleet. In fact, aside from the E-nil (and Pre-E, for that matter), Enterprises are generally NOT on missions of true deep-space exploration.
Then, count in the INTENT of these designs, as exemplified in the nigh-fact (and admittedly nigh-dated) text of the TNG-TM. Galaxies and Ambassadors are the "primary instruments of exploration" of the fleet. The conclusion that I'm trying to reach here is that from all we see of the "big" starships, that they are fully equipped per design to be EXPLORERS. That we rarely see them in that capacity is not necessarily a strike against them; most of this evidence is from the Enterprise, and we generally accept this as the exception to the rule. Enterprises are more frequently seen as troubleshooters, and this can easily be due to their role as one of the most important ships in the fleet.
This is not to say that other ships aren't used for exploration; the Constellations are obviously well equipped for this as well, but are simply not as big or as glamouous as the Ambies or Galaxies. I still think that the Ambassadors are smaller production runs for ships and that they were simply decommissioned, destroyed or unavailable for most of the war. What Ambies there were can easily be lost in the clouds of starships we see in DS9. Just because the VFX guys didn't have a model doesn't mean they weren't there.
posted
Any or all of this makes as much sense as the next, as we may never know the truth behind the Ambassador legacy.
However, I guess on the other hand...3 other Ambassadors (presumably) were mentioned during the run (other than the Yamaguchi) of DS9, somewhat proving their existance...
Those being the Valdemar ("Tribunal") then the Gandhi ("Defiant") and then during the actual war-war the Exeter was mentioned as being in the 9th fleet ("You are Cordially Invited")....
...so though not seen...they at least still exist...
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