quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Incidently, re: the Neutral Zone as an exercise in economic sanctions:
The only example I can think of is in DS9, when we hear that the Dominion is making attacks across the Neutral Zone, presumably in an effort to split Starfleet's attention and resources. But I don't remember if anything was mentioned about the Romulan position on the issue; whether they were actively letting the Dominion through, or whether they were just not overly anxious about preventing it. Or, I suppose, whether they honestly didn't know about the attacks until they occured. And, of course, the Dominion hardly represents a neutral third party. What about "Birthright"? The Yridian ship took Worf across the NZ, as I recall.
I believe regarding the Dominion crossing the RNZ, Dax says that the Romulans really shouldnt(/or didnt) care because the Dominion is just running across their back yard to give the Federation a bloody-nose or something to that effect in her defense of why the Romulans dont really have any reason yet to join the war despite these incidents. The Yridians are probably neutral third party, as they trade information with just about anybody, including the Romulans, so I am sure it doesn't phase them too much.
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Registered: Jan 2003
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Well, what I'm getting at is, is any attempt to get from Federation space to Romulan space by crossing the Neutral Zone illegal and policed against, or does the Federation merely prevent its own citizens from doing so? I'd think it would be the latter, because who knows what's on that Random Alien Name ship, and best not to have it come from your territory anyway.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
My thinking is that they only keep Federation citizens from crossing. While we've not heard mention that I can recall, there have almost got to be alien races that exist in the Federation that aren't actually member worlds. I'm thinking that the Orion's weren't supposed to be UFP members and that the UFP pretty much surrounded their worlds, tho that might be my recollections of the FASA RPG conflicting w/my canon memories. The Yridians might be a "real" example of this in TNG/DS9, too.
Anyhow, would the UFP keep them from traveling thru UFP space? Probably not. They'd likely allow them to roam about in the Federation, especially if they've proven to be Mostly Harmless in the past. The UFP being big socialists and all, prolly figure that the promotion of free trade works quite a bit better than keeping whatever races exist in the UFP who aren't members. Besides, it also gives the UFP less to worry about if Race A is allowed to travel about, so that they have access to other resources.
There's also McCoy's line in ST:TWoK in regards to the Romulan Ale that he brings Kirk. When Kirk opens up the wrapping and see's what's inside, the conversation goes something like the below - from memory, so sue me if I get the actual wording wrong.
quote:Kirk:"Romulan Ale? Bones, you know this stuff's illegal."
McCoy:Now, I just use them for medicinal purposes. Got a fella brings 'em across the border every once in a while."
Other hilarity ensues....
Anyhow, that indicates to me that there are at least some races/people that are allowed across the border. Perhaps for diplomatic reasons? Maybe it's Race A that has a treaty w/the UFP and does trade w/the Romulans? Or maybe it's just illegal Ale smugglers and McCoy's connected. He is a Southern Gentleman after all, and we all know about moonshiners....
If there are races that are allowed trade access to the Romulan Star Empire, I'd bet good money that there would be ships on either side stopping the vessels and searching them. After all, would either side want some sort of plague to be sent over from their enemies? That or some sort of weapons being brought over? I'm sure that there'd still be a great deal of smuggling going on, but each side would likely stilly police it rather heavily and reduce it best they could. Sort of like a modern day Korean DMZ.
Just my thinking on the subject. It's something I don't often do, just to warn you....
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Regarding the Picard/Dougherty conversation once again, with what we know from Enterprise, could the "bunch of thugs" still refer to the Romulans? The visual evidence of all the Romulan power in "Minefield" clearly supersedes this remark. The assertion that they didn't have warp drive would be just like naming a whole civilization "thugs" -- propaganda. I wonder if Starfleet's history lessons are that bad.
-------------------- Bernd Schneider
Registered: Mar 1999
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And reguard the "simple impulse" line by scotty in BoT... impulse power has always referred to propulsion - not power supply.
I can't remember when in the episode Scotty said this - but maybe the Enterprise had knocked their warp-capability off-line??
OR maybe the Enterprise when scanning the Romulan ship didn't pick up a warp-drive as they were using a forced quantum singularity drive? BUT again we come to... Picard's line throwing it all out the window.
Maybe in a special edition they will have it re-edited to him saying "2-centuries ago"?
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Regarding the Picard/Dougherty conversation once again, with what we know from Enterprise, could the "bunch of thugs" still refer to the Romulans? The visual evidence of all the Romulan power in "Minefield" clearly supersedes this remark. The assertion that they didn't have warp drive would be just like naming a whole civilization "thugs" -- propaganda. I wonder if Starfleet's history lessons are that bad.
Agreed, the quote, specifically from Insurrection were:
quote: PICARD Our "partners" are nothing more than petty thugs.
DOUGHERTY (dismissing that) On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders. Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a, I'm not worried about that...
PICARD Someone probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago.
...which would seem to answer your 'thug' question.
As far as anything else in question...just because Picard said "a century ago" in a conversation doesnt mean that that was when they got it, especially when he so vaguely puts it as "someone probably said"...
I think if you look at the quote again, Picard may simply be referring to the fact that the Romulans were not much of a threat...even with warp drive until about a century ago...when all of the events that took place between TOS and the Tomed Incident occured, a period when the Romulans became obviously more aggressive. They very well could have had warp drive all along, it just seems that no one was really concerned (possibly because of a Treaty) with those 'petty thugs' until they started to once again become a threat in the mid/late-23rd century.
Also, hasn't this topic been discussed to death yet? Considering how much we have talked about this in the last few months ( February ) and years ( March '99 )...( October '99 )...( March '00 )...(December '01)...among many many more....wouldn't it just be easier to read over those again, rather than cough up the same phlegm like this every few months??
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Registered: Jan 2003
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no really - I see - a century ago is when they became really nasty - Tomed...
It can be constued that way - for continuity's sake but the real flow of the words and then scene has Picard meaning Rommies getting the warp drive tech a century before - turning thugs into an empire (of thugs).
A sloppy attempt at continuity... they couldd have just said "The Breen" or something.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
Then again, there is always the othe ranswer, that they got warp drive from the Klingon treaty and before that, they used a different approach to FTL travel. Ont eh other tenticle, arn't there sources that say that the Klings (TOS era) used Graff units, instead of warp drive?
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Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
One should note that Dougherty is clearly arguing that Arabs*=World Leaders => Good Thing (as compared to Arabs=Petty Thugs), and Romulans=Empire => Good Thing. In sequitur, he seems to be arguing that Son'a=Something Greater Than Thugs => Good Thing, too. Otherwise, his tirade would do little to further his cause.
So it would appear he actually advocates the Romulan acquisition of warp drive as a good thing. It somehow allows the Feds to "handle" the Romulans better, in Dougherty's logic. This would be an odd argument if the introduction of warp launched the Romulan war against Earth - both because Romulan War =! Good Thing and because the thugness (or any other aspect) of the Romulans would not have been known to the Earthlings before the war.
It would be less odd if the introduction of warp did happen after the war, though. Which would necessarily place it at TOS (or later) and thus at the "century before" timepoint that Picard speaks of, right? The emergence of the Romulans from their Zone, and the existence of close ties by ST6:TUC, would be the "handling" Dougherty refers to. And whatever soured the relations later on, perhaps this Tomed thing, would be what Picard is reminding him of.
Timo Saloniemi
*) Of course, Doughtery could also be speaking of something like Rockefeller or the Russian mafia here...
Registered: Nov 1999
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