quote: Is that realistic, eliminating a rank and then restoring it a decade later? I know real services have tinkered with their ranks to some extent--the US Army's gotten rid of those technical ranks since WWII, for instance. Has a military added a rank in the last century or so?
I think the rank of Field Marshal has been abolished (or is only available in times of war). I know the British army added/modified a couple of ranks during the Napoleonic period, the most notable being Colour Sergeant in 1813. The RN rank structure was also rationalised and expanded in the 19th century- the ranks of Lieutenant Commander and Commander were added and Commodore was made an actual rank rather than a position. I can't thin of an instance where a rank was got rid of and then re-intoduced though.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Naaaa....Kirk and company al knew who Col. West was. He would've had to actually be a Commander.
And on what do you base this? No one of the Enterprise crew identifies the body. It's the Starfleet head honcho who unmasks him, and the voice that says "it's Colonel West" sounds like him, not any of Kirk's people.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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posted
Pardon me for resurrecting an old thread, but this has on my mind lately. (On the other hand, I've also been down with the flu this week, so maybe it's just delirium.)
As I expand my breakdown of officers on the TMP-ST VI Enterprise to include enlisted crew, I've run into some more questions that have me stumped. Once again I'd like to "think out loud" and see what other minds and fresh perspectives can come up with.
quote:Quoth me: Do you think Starfleet ships have bosuns?
What exactly do bosuns do? Why is it not enough, from a standpoint of personnel management, to have enlisted personnel report to the officer in charge of whatever section they're assigned to?
For example, say there's a transporter operator, Petty Officer Skirn. He has a superior in the form of whatever junior officer is in charge of the transporter rooms. Junior reports, in turn, to the Chief Engineer, who reports to the First Officer. So what does the bosun do for PO Skirn that Junior can't?
Also, the term "bosun" seems out of place in Starfleet, even in the company of "yeoman" and "midshipman" et al. I'm at a loss to come up with an alternative term.
Another puzzle is machinist's mates. Presumable, someone has the job of providing routine maintainance and minor repair (as opposed to damage control) on various systems. Bob Fletcher's chart included an entry for "machinist's mates" in the Engineering department.
Up until now what I've been doing is assigning one or more machinist's mates to each department, as part of their normal watch. For example, a phaser room watch consists of an NCO in charge, two gunner's mates, and a machinist's mate. But that's starting to look wrong to me. It would take them out of Engineering and put them in whatever department they're assigned to--unless they stay in Engineering, in which case they aren't under the command of the officer in charge of their department. Which sounds awkward at best.
I'm up to 143 crew so far, incidentally. Transporter Control is the biggest so far, with 18 NCOs and 19 enlisted, plus the two officers on my old breakdown.
posted
Ok here is what I came up with Bosuns- In TWOK when Kirk comes onto the Enterprise for the training cruise you see a crewman blowing a whistle piping him aboard. Thats typically a bosuns job. On my last ship Bosuns were in charge of the small boats that we had, so maybe they could be in charge of small shuttlecraft or something. They were also in charge of the lifeboats and stood bridge watches, so maybe they could maintain the escape pods.
Machinist Mates- I have thought about this too. I have put Machinist Mates down in Engineering working on the warp drive, deflector array and other major componants and in a seperate division in the Engineering Department (Ships Services Division). Here they fix replicators, holodecks, and other crew comforts. They could also augment the bosuns in fixing shuttlecraft engines. Just a few ideas that I have been kicking around. Hope it helps any. Oh I would like to see that chart you have and maybe I could give you a hand with it.
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posted
On Machinist's Mates: some of the movie era non-canon deckplans, notably the ones for the Akula class is SotSF2, have fabrication machinery, which I presume is intended to be the forerunner of replicators. The Machinist (and his Mates) might work these systems.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote:Quoth Intruder1701: Oh I would like to see that chart you have and maybe I could give you a hand with it.
The only chart I've made so far is the breakdown of officers earlier in this thread, along with a few rough notes about who stands watch in a particular room and what they do.
For example:
quote:Landing Bay Control Room: Standard shift consists of a CPO who's in charge of the station, and four crewmen: two traffic controlmen and two tractor beam operators.
Total: 3 NCO, 12 crew
I'm operating under the assumption that machinist's mates are the people who are tasked with maintaining and repairing the ship's systems in general, not any specific item. The question is how they would be organized. Would they be expected to learn everything about everything, or would they specialize to some degree?
In the USN, how much is the operator of any given piece of hardware responsible for maintaining it? Is the guy who aims and fires missiles on a CG expected to do routine maintainance on his console? If nothing happens when he presses the button, is he expected to pull the panel off and fix it himself?
If I remember correctly, the film Crimson Tide implied this. The guys who operate the communications systems were the ones struggling to repair them.
As for bosuns, I meant the term in the RMN sense of a seniormost NCO who is in charge of all the enlisted personnel on the ship. Is there no equivalent in modern navies?
posted
Well on my ship we had a ships bosun who was a former enlisted boatswains mate who became commisioned I think he was an ensign. He was in charge of 1st division which was made up of enlisted boatswain mates (Petty Officers and one CPO). They were in charge of mooring lines and such. We also had a fuels bosun who was a Warrant Officer in charge of all the aviation fuel we had for the airplanes, an Air Bosun who was in charge of the crash and salvage crew for flight deck crashes, a catupults. They were all former enlisted boatswains mates who became officers.
As far as your questions, for the most part no an operator for a console usually does not make major repairs. For instance say a Radarman is working at his console and notices that it isnt working properly. He will troubleshoot it and if he finds it beyond his capability (Normally turning it off and back on again) he will then ask an Electronics Techinician to take a look at it and this individual will be the one to tear it apart and try to fix it.
-------------------- "Who cares if we bomb a few hospitals, it just means we got them a second time" Warrant Officer Robert Clift, CVN-71 OEF
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posted
Though I think we should note that most repairs we see on TV are of the "if not fixed in five minutes everyone dies" variety, which limits the number of specialists one can get before, well, everyone dies; thus placing a bit more encouragment behind such DIY projects.
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I'm at 489 (72 officers and 417 crew), and still have several gaps in Engineering and the cargo bay. So these numbers will need to be tweaked if I'm going to keep the final total under 500. But here they are for now.
Totals in (parenthasis) are low, because there are still gaps in Engineering and Services.
Generally, you can divide a section by 3 to find the number of people who man the section on any given shift. Most sections have 1 extra enlisted person, who is a yeoman assigned to the section's officers. Where there are fewer than 3 officers, see the original version of this list on page 6 of this thread for the explanation.
A notable exception to the above is Damage Control, where 6 of the 9 NCOs don't man the Damage Control Center, but instead lead damage control parties, and 1 enlisted person per shift is on the main bridge, manning the Damage Control station there.
COMMAND DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 2 SO, 0 JO, 1 NCO, 1 ENLISTED
CAPTAIN: 1 SO
FIRST OFFICER: 1 SO
BOSUN: 1 NCO
CAPTAIN�S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 33 JO, (55) NCO, (169) ENLISTED
CHIEF ENGINEERING OFFICER: 1 SO
MAIN ENGINEERING: 3 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
IMPULSE ENGINEERING: 3 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
BATTERY ROOM: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
MAINTAINANCE & REPAIR: 2 JO, 9 NCO, 37 ENLISTED
DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER: 3 JO, 9 NCO, 16 ENLISTED
RADIATION CONTROL: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
TRANSPORTER OPERATIONS: 2 JO, 18 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
ENERGY-FIELD OPERATIONS: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
TECHNICAL SUPPLY: 1 JO, 1 ENLISTED
PHASER ROOM: : 2 JO, 3 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
TORPEDO ROOM OFFICERS: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 13 ENLISTED
HELMSMEN 3 JO
LANDING BAY CONTROL ROOM: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 31 ENLISTED
HANGER DECK OFFICERS: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
SHUTTLE CREWS: 4 NCO, 4 ENLISTED
MAIN COMPUTER OPERATIONS OFFICERS: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
SCIENCES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 17 JO, 27 NCO, 58 ENLISTED
CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER: 1 SO
NAVIGATION: 3 JO
SENSOR ROOM: 3 JO, 3 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
COMMUNICATIONS: 3 JO
ANTHROPOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ARCHAEOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ASTRONOMIST/ASTROPHYSICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
BIOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
CHEMIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
GENETICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
MATHEMATICIAN: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
PHYSICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
SECURITY DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 2 JO, 3 NCO, 27 ENLISTED
CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER: 1 SO
SECURITY OFFICERS: 2 JO
SECURITY TEAMS: 3 NCO, 27 ENLISTED
MEDICAL DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 5 JO, 5 NCO, 25 ENLISTED
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: 1 SO
MEDICAL OFFICERS: 2 JO
PSYCHOTHERAPIST: 1 JO
DENTIST: 1 JO
RECREATION OFFICER: 1 JO
CHIEF NURSE: 1 NCO
ASST. CHIEF NURSE: 2 NCO
RECREATION PERSONNEL: 2 NCO
NURSES: 12 CREW
MEDICAL TECHNICIANS: 9 ENLISTED
MEDICAL RESEARCH TECHNICIANS: 4 ENLISTED
SERVICES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 8 JO, (6) NCO, (40) ENLISTED
posted
I would put the weapons guys in the Security Department rather then in Engineering
-------------------- "Who cares if we bomb a few hospitals, it just means we got them a second time" Warrant Officer Robert Clift, CVN-71 OEF
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posted
Shipboard weapons would be a whole seperate thing though: on a TOS ship, it makes sense to have them in engineering (assuming there's no specialized control room for such things- like mabye in the saucer- securely above the lower planetary sensor)
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posted
I put Gunnery in Engineering Division in this era because that's where it is in Bob Fletcher's notes.
It may be different in the 24th century, but at this point, Security is just shipboard police and landing party cannon fodder.
Mind you, this doesn't mean the weapons people are physically in the engine room, just that they're part of the same department. The torpedo room on the TMP Enterprise is obviously at the bottom of the dorsal, with the magazine one deck above, and Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide puts the phaser room at the center of H Deck, directly below the auxiliary bridge.
posted
Query: How many people should work in the cargo bay? This is a place that would be very busy while the ship's in port, but almost unused while underway.
Crew members from other departments and dockside people would probably round out the numbers in port, but I'm at a loss regarding how many people--if any--should be permanently assigned. I'm sure it doesn't take a trained specialist to crack open one of those crates and load a pallet, but what if the ship is transporting something hazardous?
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