posted
Of course, one could also move the Klingons to the other side of the Romulans. It would also put them closer to the Cardassians, explaining various DS9 references.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The simulation excuse doesn't wash. You'd want the simulation to be as realistic as possible. Encountering Klingons that close to Gamma Hydra was believable to the cadets.
I like the notion of moving Klingon territory.
Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: For fun maps check out Star Trek Dimensions...
Thanks, Herb, but I too have been following Christian's work for years (well not too much lately). He is, in fact, one of the primary reasons I initially abandoned my own Trek mapping project. He's just SOOO comprehensive.
Which isn't to say that I'm smart enough to have given up completely. Incidentally, I lean towards "Okudaic" (nice) distances for a 1000ly diameter of Federation space.
So, back to Tim's point: I realize the position of the Klingons is East and South of the UFP on Christian's maps and many maps derived from his work (a lot of them, including as previously mentioned Mandel). But why is this? I can't imagine this was an arbitrary decision.
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Why not? A lot of the stuff in this field (including Okudaic theories) is fairly arbitary.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The reason for the Southeastern Klingons is only "second-order arbitrary"; namely, both Probert and Sternbach/Okuda graphics traditionally and consistently place the Klingons there, with the Romulans to the Northeast. You can see many of these graphics on Christian's site. Note that Christian's version of the Probert "Conspiracy" map has been tampered with, a few names added here and there. But the labels for the Romulan and Klingon homeworlds were there to begin with (although the Klingon world was labeled "Kling" back then...).
It beats me how Probert originally ended up with this map layout that differed from preexisting FJ or Mandel works on the Klingon/Romulan issue. Later maps have been fairly true to the Probert thing, though (and there's the rumor of TNG Art Dept actually maintaining a felt-pen map of their own for the purposes of keeping track).
posted
Star Fleet Battles, produced by Franz Joseph Designs, and the original Star Trek Technical Manual placed Romulan territory to the "west" of the Federation and the Klingons to the "east" with the Tholians at the edge of the galaxy to the "south."
Placing these two territories on opposite sides of the Federation would, in my mind, hinder any technological or cultural exchange between the two. What, did Starfleet/The Federation allow Klingons and Romulans to fly across the Federation?
Plus, kinda hard for those two empires to fight each other being that far apart.
Of course, that didn't stop the Romulans and Klingons from sending troops and ships to Bajor and Cardassia, which these new star charts place on the opposite side of the quadrant.
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I've moved the 'creative' portion of my tinkering to here and will make efforts not to confuse the two. I do remain curious about a more northerly placement of the Klingons (particularly in light of DS9 references and Gamma Hydra). Is the 'Northwestern' placement of DS9, Bajor and Cardassia similarly sourced to onscreen maps? I'm also curious about the extent of several of these empires and how we know/guess their sizes.
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The placement of DS9 to Southwest of Earth (and thus more or less to the same "latitude" with the Klingon heartland) is not as rigorously based in onscreen maps as the relative positions of Romulan and Klingon homeworlds are.
There are references to the Cardassians being West of Earth in Art Department thinking, but (apart from the "adjusted" Probert map which was seen in some form in early DS9 episodes) there is no map that would show Cardassia/Bajor and Earth in the same picture.
However, the extensive war zone maps of late DS9 show a broad U shape for the Dominion-controlled area, with the Cardassians in the Southwestern branch, and with the Romulan symbol in the Northeastern corner. Combined with the dialogue of the strategic situation at that point, this supports an interpretation where Earth sits in the middle of that U, and is being flanked by a devious Eastern attack that makes use of the RNZ.
This would also match the known scaling of that war zone map (based on Bajor-Cardassia 5 ly distance as per the DS9 Tech Manual) and the DS9 TM references to "UFP core regions" lying 50 ly from Bajor.
As for Klingons accessing Cardassia, it was explicitly stated that they "had come a long way" ("Way of the Warrior"), and shown that they relied on Federation support before embarking on the final leg of their voyage of conquest. It was also shown that they had traveled under cloak.
With Romulans, there are references to "a long way" as well ("Visionary"), as well as repeated instances of cloaked penetration of UFP space. There is always the "Birthright" controversy of Romulan space being a shuttle-hop away from DS9, though. But perhaps that Yridian just had a very good shuttle?
posted
Well, it takes us back to the three dimensional aspect of space that cant be translated well as a 2-D map. The Klingons could have crossed unclaimed territory "under" federation space to get at Cardassia (also explaining how they could have effectivlt fought the Federation while occupying planets in the Cardassian Union- whatever that is in planetary numbers(?).
Despite the crowded way most maps of the major powers are shown, there must remain a vast unclaimed space between each for interstellar commerce and exploration to be possible without having to travel through someone's "backyard".
Otherwise, a small(ish) empire like the Cardassians/Romulans would find itself boxed in by hostile neighbors.
The Yidrian ship in "Birthright" semed prety sunstansial to me- for a civillian ship (consider those dinky Ferengi shuttlepods that get to DS9 just fine from Fereginar).
Thinking on it, mabye the "badlands" served as a kind of natural buffer between Cardassian Union and the UFP- I'd imagine more than a few ships have been lost there over the decades.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Trek empires seem to have an overbearing habit to claim open space as their territory (which would be equivalent to nations on Earth drawing borders through the oceans). But I assume the intergalactically acknowledged sovereign territories would still leave legal (empty sectors) as well as illicit loopholes (due to limited sensor resolution and long rections times). So if they are only close enough together, any two empires at opposite sides of the Federation may have cultural exchange.
-------------------- Bernd Schneider
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well, even today on Earth, some nations seem to enjoy claiming territorial waters out to 200 miles or so, in order to have special fishing rights or to cause trouble for neighbors or something like that. It makes sense that interstellar nations might try something similar.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Patrolling/enforcing borders in 3D presents an especially vexing problem. Espcially where potential infiltrators have access to cloaking technology.
Not that Klingons are especially practical or anything, but it just seems impractical to try to wage a war across such a large swath of territory you don't control. You're just begging to have your supply lines cut off. I'm not sure I like the snakiness answers either. What would we be contradicting to shift the Klingons to the "Northeast" of the Romulans?
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Having "northern" Klingons only leads to more problems with them invading the "southeast" Cardassin Union.
Having to patrol huge abounts of 3-D space wouuld at least account for the ol' "only ship in range" bit we've seen sooo often. Even a (fed-wide) Starfleet of 5000 plus starships (not inconcievable when you take SOA's fleet numbers into consideration) would be spread thin to patrol the borders and resolve conflicts.
That might also explain 100 year old starships serving in Fed and Klingon fleets- anything beats killing your econemy in an endless race to keep your entire fleet "cutting edge" when most ships within an empire's borders would never see serious combat.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: [QB] Having "northern" Klingons only leads to more problems with them invading the "southeast" Cardassin Union.
How is that? With the Star Charts map there still is a vast expanse of Federation space between the southeastern Klingons and the southwestern (well, more south-central) Cardassians.
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The DS9 maps as such pose no limitations on the placement of the Klingon Empire. Never is it indicated that a particular maneuver in a given direction would cut the Klingons off DS9, or that Archanis Sector would lie to the South-Southwest of Bellatrix, or anything like that.
However, the Probert map from "Conspiracy" and Keiko's schoolroom shows that planet Kling lies to the South of planet Romulus. Also, Sternbach's DS9 TM maps showing the Klingon and Romulan Empires reflect this relative positioning; however, those maps are not seen onscreen.
No particular logic would prevent the Klingons from surrounding the supposedly relatively compact Romulan space from multiple directions, even if Gamma Hydra and Kling lie on opposite sides of Romulus. Just make the tentacles thick enough not to be cut or blockaded. The Charts could easily be amended to show the Klingons filling the Eastern side of the RNZ and reaching all the way to Gamma Hydra. However, it would not be plausible to have their Empire consist SOLELY of a compact ovoid North of Gamma Hydra!
The remaining option would be to move the entire Romulan Star Empire North of Gamma Hydra, with the Klingon Empire tagging along and coming to rest just South of Gamma Hydra... This would nicely jibe with the ENT idea that Klingons are closer to Earth than Romulans. And all it would contradict would be Sternbach's noncanon DS9 TM maps... And perhaps a few travel time references.
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