posted
It's all right, PopMaze, I forgive you. I know MSGttE isn't canon (it gets the dates horribly wrong for one thing) - I was just suggesting its solution as a possible.
Regards the numbering, there are only 5 round ports for shuttle / work pod docking: the bridge, two torp, two sec hull. The two on the port / stbd edges of the saucer are rectangular and for personnel transfer tunnel connection (as seen in TMP). And yes, the numbers *still* don't make sense.
posted
Er, not to drag something on for God knows how long, but there must be a discrepancy somewhere between Shane Johnson's Mr Scott's Guide and the movie. If you'll remember back to the movie, the portside torpedo bay got completely destroyed by the Reliant's phaser fire. However, when Spock's funeral was held, it was held in a bay where there was no apparent damage whatsoever.
So, unless Mr. Scott's crews spent all night repainting the walls and molding out new parts, (which I think would be kind of odd, even for a funeral - why the hell wouldn't they fix the bridge up first? "Scotty, the bridge, prime center of command and control for an entire starship and 430 people, can wait. I want the torp bay to look its best for Spock's burial."), there are two seperate bays, each with its own tube.
Besides, if there was only one bay, and all the little torpedo trolley moved at the same speed, the arm to fire time for one torpedo would probably be oh, what, six full hours of torturous drama? :-)
posted
As for the docking ports, the rectangular one on the saucer rim is only present on the port side (it's for accessing the port, after all!). There is no corresponding feature on the starboard side.
However, there are supposedly two circular docking ports hidden behind protective covers on the saucer underside, 45 degrees off the centerline. These cannot be seen easily in any of the existing movies. However, the reworked version of TMP will probably show one of these in detail. After all, Kirk and Spock take their (originally edited-out) spacewalk through one. "Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" describes these things in detail, and seems to be true to the original intentions of Andy Probert.
So that's five docking ports plus the rectangular "gangway hatch". Of course, the existence of two ports covered by hatches means there could be more such covered ports elsewhere, even though Probert never put them there.
posted
We did see Kirk leave through one of those airlocks, it's just in the pan-scan format of the movie instead of widescreen, because that scene was unfinished, and you can see all the scalfolding behind Kirk as he leaves.
------------------ Me: "Why don't you live in Hong Kong?" Rachel Roberts: "Hong Kong? Nah. Oh, but we can live in China! Yeah, China has great Chinese food!"
posted
When I asked Andrew Probert about the phasers & photon torpedoes some months back he said the only torpedo launchers are those located in the dorsal section.
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
I would say that the Mirandas were created just before the Constitution refits began. The Miranda class ships were probably considered to be "revolutionary in design" given the relative small size, and "revolutionary in weaponry" given that there are probably more than 10 phaser banks and 4 torp launchers, two on each size. It was probably designed as a battle-minded vessel while conducting exploration and science duties at the same time. The Constitution Class was basically an exploration vessel, at any time it was not designed for any form of combat. Thus the two torp launchers in the front.
It is my belief that the Ent-A was retired at the end of STVI because there was a general order to retire all Constitution Class ships because of their lack of battle readiness. The lack of rear torp launchers could probably explain this.
------------------ "My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht." Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited January 13, 2001).]
posted
Retiring a ship on those grounds doesn't make the best of sense. One, they aren't the only vessels lacking in rear torpedo launchers (Bird of Preys, anyone?). Two, they'd just signed a historic peace agreement, which means that they'd have LESS need for battle ready ships. They could put more into exploration, which is what the Constitution class seems to have been designed for. And finally, retiring a whole class of ships just over the lack of a rear torpedo launcher? Isn't that cutting off your nose to spite your face?
------------------ "And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!" -Bubbles
Lack of weapons systems, lack of space for newer equipment, inefficient propulsion systems (by the new standards), and a poor design for upgradability. These would/could all lead to the decommissioning, and with a new treaty signed the less capable vessels could be pulled out of service and newer models built.
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
posted
The Constitution-class simply may have been decommissioned because of age and redundancy more than anything else. I can't help but wonder if any of the Constitution-refits were actually new builds. If the Ent-A was actually an older ship renamed (Yorktown or otherwise) then it makes sense that they scrapped here after the damage she received in ST-VI. Furthermore, by this time, the Ent-A might well have been one of the last of her kind left anyway. And there would have been no need to build ships with the Connie-refit design from scratch, when the superior Miranda and Excelsior-class exist.
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
[This message has been edited by Dax (edited January 14, 2001).]
posted
Just a few things to point out on the retirement issue. Miranda/Avenger class starships are NOT superior to refit-Constitution class vessels. Only by means of firepower. They are classified as frigates, Constitutions are heavy cruisers. Mirandas have less actual space for equipment, and considering the extensive and inefficient layout of PTC's, are less readily adaptable to new engine types. They are specifically battle minded short-range craft intended for escort and patrol operations. They are the least equipped for scientific missions, and it shocks me that Terrel's Reliant was searching planets instead of on border patrol.
Constitution class vessels are not hampered by inability to upgrade engines, as witnessed between ST-III and ST-V/VI. (I assume the first edition of the ST Encyclopedia was accurate in saying the E-A was an upgraded Yorktown when I say this). They are better equipped for scientific exploration as they have more room for labs and scientific equipment. Space, if it is not a problem on a Miranda, should not be a problem here. All the same systems are present in a larger hull, therefore there is obviously more space to play around with here.
The only reasons I think the Constitutions were retired are because:
There were so few left that their upkeep costs and frequent need of upgrades to stay ahead of the curve were deemed inefficient use of funding.
And the Excelsior class finally made it into full scale production. With a new class of heavy cruisers in production, with even more space, adaptability, firepower (including rear-firing torpedoes), scientific instrumentation, and modern technology, the Constitutions were deemed superfluous.
Mirandas were not retired because no new frigate designs meeting the design specs of the Mirandas were yet on the drawing board. So despite their relative inflexibility to mission requirements besides protection and patrol, they were kept on. They filled their niche so well, in fact, that they were still in active construction in the latter 2300's.
Well, just the canon 'Miranda', and not the nonsensical 'Avenger' would suffice.
They are classified as frigates
IIRC, Mirandas have been reffered to as a few different things.
considering the extensive and inefficient layout of PTC's
PTC?
are less readily adaptable to new engine types.
What episode did they mention this in?
They are specifically battle minded short-range craft intended for escort and patrol operations. They are the least equipped for scientific missions.
Again, what episode? Also, IIRC, we've seen Mirandas doing everything but buying Feminie Hygiene products for Grandma, so I'd think it hard to pin down the Mirandas role.
The only reasons I think the Constitutions were retired are because:
There were so few left that their upkeep costs and frequent need of upgrades to stay ahead of the curve were deemed inefficient use of funding.
And the Excelsior class finally made it into full scale production. With a new class of heavy cruisers in production, with even more space, adaptability, firepower (including rear-firing torpedoes), scientific instrumentation, and modern technology, the Constitutions were deemed superfluous.
These Ideas = Very good thinking.
------------------ "...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing." - Harlan Ellison, on the Media Consumer of today.
posted
::sigh:: I see I've been caught. Okay, in my vengeful techno-talk regarding Miranda vs. Constitutions I seem to have gotten non-canon in some places. AHH! HYPOCRISY! ::falls to floor clutching chest::
Sorry 'bout that. In any case, if these vessels were in the US navy, that is what they would be classified as. Having a copy of Jane's All the World's Fighting Ships from 1976, I can back that up. But you are right, they were never referred to as such in any series or movie. If you follow Todd Allen Guenther's Ships of the Star Fleet, that is also what they are classified as.
When I said that Mirandas were basically only good for convoy protection and patrol, I was speaking from a practical point of view. Realistically, they are not designed large enough for the mission flexibility that Constitutions have. Their possible laboratory base is rediculously low, and their sensors are lesser in number it seems.
PTC stands for Plasma Transfer Conduit, which utilizes magnetic peristalsis to move plasma from the dilithium reaction vessel to the nacelles. And if you look at that fantastic set of deck plans drawn up by Michael Rupprecht, you can see they extend forever and all over the place. Not like its his fault - the damn warp core is so far away from the nacelle pylons. But I assumed that this would hamper any efforts to update a warp drive system, seeing as with every warp core update comes new PTC units. What I was really getting at was that, if the warp engines on board a Constitution were difficult to upgrade, it would be an absolute hell to update the ones on a Miranda.
In anycase, I apologize and hope that no one will think the lesser of me because of my non-canonism. I also hope I haven't offended anyone by dissing Mirandas in favor of Constitutions. I truly love the Miranda design, its very compact, its just relatively useless as a multimission platform in practice.
posted
I would say the vessels outfitting would be different for it's mission type. An excort type would have more wepaons, a science/surveyor would have more sensors/labs, etc.... Wasn't there something, somewhere (E-D TM?) that had the idea of a bigger fleet of mission specific ships, rather than the all-purpose Goliths? Maybe that was the thinking by keeping the Mirandas in production and decommissioning the larger mutlipurpose ships.
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited January 15, 2001).]
posted
Am I the only one here who thinks that the Connie-refit and Miranda-class have only a slight difference in internal volume? It seems to me that the wedge at the back and top of the Miranda saucer is about as volumous (is that a word?) as the Connie-refit engineering hull.
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
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