Flare Sci-fi Forums
Flare Sci-Fi Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » Domestic Surveillance (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 9 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9   
Author Topic: Domestic Surveillance
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, has anyone else been following the story?

If so, I'm wondering if anyone thinks that Mr. Bush using the NSA for listening to domestic calls to a foreign country is a good thing.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Fabrux
Epic Member
Member # 71

 - posted      Profile for Fabrux     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wonder if Canada and/or Mexico is included in the definition of a foreign country...

--------------------
I haul cardboard and cardboard accessories

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
MinutiaeMan
Living the Geeky Dream
Member # 444

 - posted      Profile for MinutiaeMan     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This whole thing is, finally, proof of Bush's criminal activities. The whole wiretapping business constitutes violation of the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure. The NSA conducts their searches completely independently of the judicial system, and therefore, any monitoring of United States citizens in such circumstances is a breach of the Constitution.

I've been seriously wondering why more people haven't been screaming for impeachment already.

--------------------
“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged
Aban Rune
Former ascended being
Member # 226

 - posted      Profile for Aban Rune     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bEcuz we R winnink the war on ter0rr!!1!!

--------------------
"Nu ani anqueatas"

Aban's Illustration
The Official Website of Shannon McRandle

Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

 - posted      Profile for Jason Abbadon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The real issue is that Bush purposely did not go through the FISA court that handles all covert warrants.
So leinent is this court's criteria for a warrant that this year they've only refused four of over 1700th requests.

So: either Bush knew that his actions were expressly illegal or they had zero cause for the surveliance...I mean, not a shred.

There's also the rather shady fact that only select congress members knew about this little operation: anyone that would have seriously opposed it (Arlen Spector of the House Judiciary Committe for example- a man who's job it is to approve such things)were keptout of the loop.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

 - posted      Profile for Ritten     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All the evidence is here to see.

--------------------
"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
Shakaar
Member
Member # 1782

 - posted      Profile for Shakaar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
On CNN they reported that only one request to conduct surveillance was rejected.
I�m not troubled that it was being done- but I am troubled that he didn�t go through the courts. Bush has given very poor reasoning for it- that they wouldn�t have been carried out fast enough (when the law stated he can order it to be done, and then go to the court 72 hours later)� but it hasn�t been three days� it�s gone on for three years. Bush condemned the media for publishing the story- as it brought it to light and now the terrorists will adapt. Well, I feel if he had gone to the courts, it would not have been a big story and would have stayed quiet- it was not the fact that it was going on that was a story, it was the fact that it was going on illegally.

Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Malnurtured Snay
Blogger
Member # 411

 - posted      Profile for Malnurtured Snay     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
People engaged in illegal activity ALWAYS get upset when the media focuses in on them -- generally, they won't come out and say "I'm upset because I'm engaged in illegal activity and now everyone knows about it because of you pesky newspapers", rather, they'll just scream about national security and try to justify themselves.

--------------------
www.malnurturedsnay.net

Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

 - posted      Profile for TSN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, we won't get to hear Bush say "And I would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids and your dog!"?
Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

 - posted      Profile for Jason Abbadon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fuck, that was my response.
Bush could be the Phantom President or some oher Scooby villan.

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To my way of thinking, what the domestic surveillance event, along with so many other things, indicates to me that this administration is trying to us September 11 to rebuild the Imperial Presidency.

Dick Cheney said as much on December 20, 2005:

quote:
Vice President's Remarks to the Traveling Press
Air Force Two
En route, Muscat, Oman

Q Sir, if I could ask you to step back for a moment, there has been a lot written and talked about recently about executive power, the power of the presidency. You have a really interesting perspective on this having served in the Ford White House, which arguably was the point at which presidential power had reached its absolute nadir. And I'm curious how that experience has shaped your view of presidential powers, and the degree to which you felt over the last four years that you and your office need to play a role in reasserting those powers both vis-a-vis Congress, and in terms of expanding presidential powers to take account of the world that we live in now, which is a very different world from --

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I do have the view that over the years there had been an erosion of presidential power and authority, that it's reflected in a number of developments -- the War Powers Act, which many people believe is unconstitutional. It's never really been tested. We sort of have an understanding when we commit force that the U.S., the government, the executive branch will notify the Congress, but making it clear we're not doing it a different form of the War Powers Act, in fact. It has never been tested. It will be tested at some point. I am one of those who believe that was an infringement upon the authority of the President. The budget -- the Anti-In Common and Control Act, back in the '70s, passed during the Ford administration that limited the President's authority to impound funds, a series of things Watergate -- a lot of the things around Watergate and Vietnam, both, in the '70s served to erode the authority, I think, the President needs to be effective especially in a national security area.

----

In other areas, in the perspective looking at issues that come up during this administration, one of those was the Energy Task Force. My belief that the President is entitled to and needs to have unfiltered advice in formulating policy, that he ought to be able to seek the opinion of anybody he wants to, and that he should not have to reveal, for example, to a member of Congress who he talked to that morning.

I think you're right, probably the end of the next administration, you had the nadir of the modern presidency in terms of authority and legitimacy, then a number of limitations that were imposed in the aftermath of Vietnam and Watergate. But I do think that to some extent now, we've been able to restore the legitimate authority of the presidency.

I found the opinion expresed by Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post in this piece interesting.

quote:
Imperial Assumptions

----

At his news conference yesterday, he took advantage of the sovereign's divine right to rewrite history. Clearly outraged at the Senate's recalcitrance on the USA Patriot Act, the president issued a challenge: "These senators need to explain why they thought the Patriot Act was a vital tool after the September the 11th attacks but now think it's no longer necessary." The president conveniently forgot to mention that Congress originally set a "sunset" date for the act to expire precisely because members were so deeply concerned about the extent to which it compromised our liberties.

He also sought to explain why he believes he has the right to order the National Security Agency to conduct electronic surveillance of Americans without first getting a warrant. He cited Article II of the Constitution, which of course doesn't mention telephones or the Internet. When it's convenient, the president recognizes that "strict constructionism" has its limits.

None of this is really unexpected from a president whose apparent goal from the beginning has been to reinflate the presidency and unshackle it from those inconvenient restraints that Congress or the courts might seek to impose.

Think about the powers this White House has asserted: to detain terrorist suspects indefinitely, without charges or due process. To kidnap suspects and hold them in secret CIA-run prisons, with no acknowledgment that the suspect is even in U.S. custody. To inflict on these prisoners inhumane and degrading treatment that amounts to torture.

And now the president claims the unilateral right to tap your phone and mine whenever he wants. Never mind that there is a legally established procedure to obtain warrants for such domestic surveillance; never mind that this lawful process is conducted quickly and in total secrecy. The imperial president does not bow to lowly courts. He just does what he believes he needs to do.

The Administration has been out pushing the 'Congress gave us the authority' line of reasoning, which is, in my opinion, tenious at best.

quote:
Gonzales backs wiretaps

By Guy Taylor
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales yesterday said President Bush has "inherent authority" to conduct secret surveillance on people inside the United States without getting a warrant from any judicial body.

Speaking at the White House before Mr. Bush's press conference, Mr. Gonzales vigorously defended the legality of the secret domestic spying, the existence of which elicited an uproar on Capitol Hill ever since Mr. Bush acknowledged the program Saturday.

The administration has been authorized to intercept phone calls and gather "signals intelligence" without warrants since shortly after September 11, when Congress authorized the president to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to combat terrorism.

"We also believe the president has the inherent authority under the Constitution, as commander in chief, to engage in this kind of activity," Mr. Gonzales said. "Signals intelligence has been a fundamental aspect of waging war since the Civil War."

Here is the text of the resolution in question:

quote:
Authorization for Use of Military Force

--S.J.Res.23--

S.J.Res.23

One Hundred Seventh Congress

of the

United States of America

AT THE FIRST SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,

the third day of January, two thousand and one

Joint Resolution

To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.

Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and

Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force'.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

Speaker of the House of Representatives.

Vice President of the United States and

President of the Senate.

According to Tom Daschle during the drafting of the resolution, the Administration was trying to get around the law to conduct action inside the United States.

quote:
Power We Didn't Grant

----

On the evening of Sept. 12, 2001, the White House proposed that Congress authorize the use of military force to "deter and pre-empt any future acts of terrorism or aggression against the United States." Believing the scope of this language was too broad and ill defined, Congress chose instead, on Sept. 14, to authorize "all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations or persons [the president] determines planned, authorized, committed or aided" the attacks of Sept. 11. With this language, Congress denied the president the more expansive authority he sought and insisted that his authority be used specifically against Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.

Just before the Senate acted on this compromise resolution, the White House sought one last change. Literally minutes before the Senate cast its vote, the administration sought to add the words "in the United States and" after "appropriate force" in the agreed-upon text. This last-minute change would have given the president broad authority to exercise expansive powers not just overseas -- where we all understood he wanted authority to act -- but right here in the United States, potentially against American citizens. I could see no justification for Congress to accede to this extraordinary request for additional authority. I refused.

So why didn't the Administration go to Congress to change Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, apparently the controling law in the domestic surveillance area.

Well, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales answers that question.

quote:
White House Elaborates on Authority for Eavesdropping

----

FISA also contains emergency provisions that permit warrantless eavesdropping for up to 72 hours when the attorney general certifies that there is no other way to get crucial information. The law also permits warrantless eavesdropping for up to 15 days after a declaration of war.

"There is an emergency provision within FISA, and one could ask for more authority," Gorelick said. "If they had good reason, Congress would have given it to them."

Gonzales said that the administration contemplated doing that, but was told by "certain members of Congress" that "that would be difficult if not impossible."

So, it would be too difficult to amend FISA so, why bother really.

However, that pesky law, the PATRIOT Act actually did amend FISA.

quote:
SEC. 218. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION.
Sections 104(a)(7)(B) and section 303(a)(7)(B) (50 U.S.C. 1804(a)(7)(B) and 1823(a)(7)(B)) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 are each amended by striking "the purpose" and inserting "a significant purpose".

The text of the PATRIOT Act can be found as a PDF on a Department of Justice web page called oddly enough, lifeandliberty.gov

Apparently it's not impossible to amend FISA.

And this is incredibly interesting.

quote:
Bush was denied wiretaps, bypassed them

WASHINGTON, Dec. 26 (UPI) -- U.S. President George Bush decided to skip seeking warrants for international wiretaps because the court was challenging him at an unprecedented rate.

A review of Justice Department reports to Congress by Hearst newspapers shows the 26-year-old Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court modified more wiretap requests from the Bush administration than the four previous presidential administrations combined.

The 11-judge court that authorizes FISA wiretaps modified only two search warrant orders out of the 13,102 applications approved over the first 22 years of the court's operation.

But since 2001, the judges have modified 179 of the 5,645 requests for surveillance by the Bush administration, the report said. A total of 173 of those court-ordered "substantive modifications" took place in 2003 and 2004. And, the judges also rejected or deferred at least six requests for warrants during those two years -- the first outright rejection of a wiretap request in the court's history.

The reason I say that is important, is that in the new Imperial Presidency, when denied warrants by the constituted court, you just ignore the court and commit a federal crime and no one is supposed to actually.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
Member # 882

 - posted      Profile for Jason Abbadon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Something I'm unclear on- who, if anyone has been arrested from intel gathered via these illegal wiretaps?

If anyone has, it's grounds for dismissal, if no one has, it only showcases that there was never just cause for a tap in the first place.

I dont think history will be too kind to Mr. Bush.
...or his cronies (like Gonzales, that asshat).

--------------------
Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jay the Obscure:
The reason I say that is important, is that in the new Imperial Presidency, when denied warrants by the constituted court, you just ignore the court and commit a federal crime and no one is supposed to actually.

Um, oops.

....and no one is supposed to actually care.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here is the point of view of Mr. Bush regarding the warrantless wiretaps:

quote:
Press Conference of the President

----

As President and Commander-in-Chief, I have the constitutional responsibility and the constitutional authority to protect our country. Article II of the Constitution gives me that responsibility and the authority necessary to fulfill it. And after September the 11th, the United States Congress also granted me additional authority to use military force against al Qaeda.

After September the 11th, one question my administration had to answer was how, using the authorities I have, how do we effectively detect enemies hiding in our midst and prevent them from striking us again? We know that a two-minute phone conversation between somebody linked to al Qaeda here and an operative overseas could lead directly to the loss of thousands of lives. To save American lives, we must be able to act fast and to detect these conversations so we can prevent new attacks.

So, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, I authorized the interception of international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. This program is carefully reviewed approximately every 45 days to ensure it is being used properly. Leaders in the United States Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this program. And it has been effective in disrupting the enemy, while safeguarding our civil liberties.

This program has targeted those with known links to al Qaeda. I've reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for so long as our nation is -- for so long as the nation faces the continuing threat of an enemy that wants to kill American citizens.

*Emphasis added.

It appears that Mr. Bush intends to ignore the constituted courts as long as someone out there wants to kill Americans.

So, roughly forever then.

I guess the old the Rule of Law thing is no longer an issue for some members of the right-wing.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

 - posted      Profile for Jay the Obscure     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What a bunch of wackos.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 9 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3