4. He was wrong, or at least, not entirely correct.

of course, I continue to subscribe to "it probably never happened anyway, just a more 'contemporary' retelling of the 'dying god' archetype, with some Judaism thrown in and a great deal taken from the story of Apollonius of Tyre."

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Anyway, Clinton is the most goddamned conservative President since, well, George Bush. Okay, bad example, but he's conservative! None of his programs (at least not many) have been liberal. Ever hear of the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Bill? The first part was fascist and the second part states-right republican bullshit. He's a conservative if I ever met one.

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

Jesus being the son of God is wholly absent from the gospels. The concept of the messiah as being the son of God is kinda hinted at in the Old Testament, Paul really hones in on it in his letters, but the entire concept of the trinity didn't get nailed down until Nicaea I, IIRC.

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"Is this real life? Is this just fantasy?"
-Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody

"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of All�h aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of All�h and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (R�h)[] created by Him; so believe in All�h and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For All�h is (the only) One Il�h (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And All�h is All�Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs."

"Philip [the disciple] said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered, 'Don't you know me, Philip, after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.'" (John 14:8-9)

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said, 'Friend, your sins are forgiven.' The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, 'Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God?'" (Luke 5:20-21) [Forgiveness of sin was recognized as the prerogative of God alone; Jesus' numerous claims to forgive sin are thus claims to divinity.]

As far as Jesus' claims of Sonship:

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.'" (John 17:1)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)

"They all [the elders and chief priests] asked, 'Are you then the Son of God?' He [Jesus] replied, 'You are right in saying I am.'" (Luke 22:70)

"'But what about you [disciples]? Who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.'" (Matthew 16:15-17)

"'Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son?'" (John 10:36)

(All quotes from the New International Version.)

These are all the words of Jesus as recorded in the gospels. You can either believe that he said them, or believe that someone made them up. Neither you nor I can prove the point one way or another. A decision to believe it or not to believe it is a decision based upon faith. So... where do you place your faith? And are you willing to bet your life on it?

(Oh, and not to be TOO much of a smart ass, but DT and Tom, don't you think you ought to READ a book before you comment to closely on it?)

Have a great last day of 1999, everyone!

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Dane

Oh, yeah. His plans for socialized medicine are conservative. Unnesecary tax increases aren't liberal, either. Oh, and wanting to give up part of our national soverignty with the NTBT, that's definitely not a liberal idea. He refuses to even consider a tax cut or a spending cut. The man has all the ear-marks of a liberal. Your definitions of conservative and liberal may be completely wacky, but the way most people think, conservative means that the government gets less power, and liberal means that the government gets more power. Clinton's a liberal. Period.

As for Jesus being the Son of God, Dane pretty much fried you all there, so all I can add is "Amen!"

It's actually an interesting argument that, if it wasn't directed towards Jesus, I could imagine a lot of Christians agreeing with. That is, the idea that God has the capacity to have children makes God more like us, and one of the central principles of Islam is that God is absolutely nothing at all like us. Hence, such a trinity is rather blasphemous.

Of course, you are free to doubt the divine nature of the Qur'an. (I put the apostrophe in the wrong place earlier.) I certainly do. But then, why one book and not the other?

Let me first attack Omega's definition of conservatives.

Why do conservatives support a larger military? Stricter police forces? "Family values"? Anti-abortion bills? Aren't these the government?
If you were truly conservative, you'd be all for unrestricted abortion, unrestricted freedom of speech, a small, stay-at-home military, smaller police forces, open immmigration, and no death penalty (we actually agree there).

"No way, no how would I let dat evil governememement put its nose in our affairs! Git outta here, and keep yer federal aid away from dem poor people! That's fascism it is, lettin da governemement give money to dose der poor people in da ghettos. Oh, yeah, wait, I forgot, keep out dem goddamned wetbacks! Thanks for dat Mr Government!"

That's my impression of a conservative (if you are from the south, I mean no disrespect)

Clinton's actions in regard to foreign policy have been roundly hawkish, and what is more Republican than killing in the name? Like I said, the AT&EDP Act was beyond conservative. If I was a specialist on domestic policy, I could go on, but I'm not and I don't feel like researching it cause it is New Year's Eve!

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"All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain
All Apologies, Nirvana

"But then, why one book and not the other?"

Because, IIRC, the Bible, which predates the Qur'an, specifically says that after Christ and his Apostles, there will be no more prophets.

"Why do conservatives support a larger military? Stricter police forces? "Family values"? Anti-abortion bills? Aren't these the government?"

Yes, but those don't give the government power in more areas of our lives. They strengthen the power in the areas it already has power in. Keeping order and defending the country are two of the primary responsibilities of a government. Dare I say, THE two. There's no family values legislation that I know of, so that can't give the government more power, but as for why we believe in them as a principle, it's because children born into stable families have a FAR lower chance of ending up on drugs or in prison. And anti-abortion bills: that's not about giving the government more power. It's about not restricting laws involving murder to humans that have already been born.