And if you believe the Bible, God believes in the concept, too. We're still paying for Adam and Eve's little screwup...

But anyway. I'd be a lot more inclined to disagree with Omega if I saw more minorities actually struggling to get ahead.
I really really REALLY hate to say this, but if two kids come to the library, one black and one white, and one is studying quietly and the other is playing basketball in the hallway, better than 9 times out of 10, I could tell you which was which without looking.

Now, I know that this is just a small part of a vicious circle in which being smart has become something to be derided (notice the smartest kid on TV lately is Steve Urkel), where being on the wrong side of society has become 'cool,' and where the ignorance of adults (who manage to get by, anyway) has contributed to the lack of motivation among their children.

But isn't ANYBODY trying?

YES. Of COURSE they are. I see that, too. But not often enough.

Of course, this may be a problem endemic to my area, and it may be that most of the minority kids I see here are the ones who are latchkey kids or whose parents want them out of the house while they do what they do, and don't care where they make trouble.

But it's discouraging.

------------------
Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

------------------
Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

See, you are the perfect example of what we're talking about. I wouldn't call you a racist. But you don't hold blacks in as high esteem as you do whites. This is no sin of your's, this is a sin of the culture. Hell, I'll admit that I feel less secure while I'm in the ghetto than when I'm in the high brow neighbourhoods. It's the way we've been taught to act.
Now, Omega denies that there is any racism. He calls it a mass conspiracy in our paranoid minds. That's a standard conservative problem. It's like his statement on racists. Me and Jay are the racists cause we discriminate against those poor, oppressed white people (my oh my, I hope people don't stop buying Microsoft just because Bill Gates is white, that poor opressed man). Race IS a factor. If anyone denies that, they're a moron. No offence Omega, but yeah, you are culturally a moron, you have no idea what the fuck goes on out there. I don't need evidence, I don't need proof. I need common sense. Hitler didn't need to go out and take a poll of the German people to find out what they thought of the Jews. He could just say to himself "I hate those goddamned Jews, and so does most other people." And he was right.

I ask you Omega, prove to me that there is a god. Somethings are difficult to prove but easy enough to observe. This is one of them. You're not going to have much concrete proof, but you just spend time around people and you figure it out. The word nigger is not as rare amongst white people as the television would have you believe. The very fact that there IS a KKK should tell you something. You may blame it on a small minority, but the organization has existed, and for long stretches of prominence, for well over a century. In America, it is PROVEN that there are still places which will not hire blacks over whites, even if the former is more qualified. Affirmative action is needed, because some colleges would prefer not to let in blacks. Hell, ever hear of racial profiling? Drive down the goddamned highway some day. It has always amazed me how out of proportion the amount of blacks I see pulled over is to the amount in the population. Let me ask you this, why are there fewer blacks writing for network television than there are whites? Why are there so fewer blacks in managerial positions in sports than there are whites? And this is even factoring in that they only make up about 15% of the population. Are blacks inferior to whites? According to you, they have to be. Why else do these happen? There's no affirmative action in the world of broadcast television. So that's it then. Blacks are not as good writers as we white folks are. Blacks write worth shit. Hey, maybe they're just not "motivated" to do it.

And no, we don't have to answer for the sins of our fathers. Hell, mine didn't come to this country until recently. Some of them were too busy slaving for the Tsar, some were too busy starving in Ireland, some were too busy shooting up fellow Dagos. So it really isn't the crime of my ancestors either. But we are responsible for the condition created, because it benefits us. We were given the higher slot on the rungs. There was a time when NYC hired the Irish after they came off the boat to be the police officers, because they were on the lowest rung. It's called evening the playing field. You can deny all you want that it is unfair, but it IS! You are a white male! You believe in god, right? Next time you pray to him, you thank him for being born male and white. Because that's the greatest thing that could've happened to you. The only better way to have it was if you could've been born into that 10% that owns 70% of the economy. Instead of sitting in your ivory tower, why don't you go to the nearest big city? Spend some time there, not in the tourist area, but in the real area. Talk to those people. Find out what it is like to be black in America. It sucks.

I don't know if this thread is even worth continuing, personally. I'm gonna stay in it until I get my 250 posts, but you can't show someone reality if they're just going to base it on what they've been told by the television and newspapers and Rush Limbaugh.

Think it over lad, try and get a grip on reality. I hope you do.

And on a side note, don't quote reagonomics to me. We've proven they don't work. This is the worst economy since the depression, and we can thank Reagan (as well as Clinton) for that.

I'll get to the defence rhetoric you've read (pure bullshit) in another thread.

And btw, the concept of profanity is purely based on puritans. Fuck them, I fully support Jay's right to say shit. That's the way real people talk.

------------------
"Here is another word that rhymes with shame" - Kurt Cobain
Blew, Nirvana

"...you don't hold blacks in as high esteem as you do whites."

A lie, plain and simple. Everything I've said indicates that I couldn't care less about race unless I'm organizing a polar expedition or something like that. Yet you continue to insist that I consider black people to be inferior. And you say I can't think on my own.

"Now, Omega denies that there is any racism."

Again, a lie. I said that racism is nowhere nearly as prominent as you believe.

"I ask you Omega, prove to me that there is a god."

To quote one of my political allies (who will probably bludgeon me to a pulp when he reads this), "Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt." Look up the archived Creation vs. Evolution thread. The first one. 'Course, whether you choose to accept the evidence I presented is up to you.

"The very fact that there IS a KKK should tell you something."

Yes, it tells me that that law of humanity I quoted a few posts back is correct.

"You may blame it on a small minority, but the organization has existed, and for long stretches of prominence, for well over a century."

Your point being? There's a town 'bout fourty miles north of Chicago where an inordinately large number of people believe that the world is flat. Another law of humanity: For any given belief, there will always be some people who believe it once the belief has been expressed, no matter how irrational the belief may be. Your world view is way too idealistic. There will ALWAYS be racists. There's nothing you can do about that.

"In America, it is PROVEN that there are still places which will not hire blacks over whites, even if the former is more qualified."

Of course there are. There always will be. But what percentage, hmm? Something like .001 or less, I'm betting.

"Affirmative action is needed, because some colleges would prefer not to let in blacks."

OK, there are two possible situations when it comes to colleges. One, it's a public college. In that case, they need to fire whomever is making that decision. Two, it's a private institution, in which case, the government has no authority. In one case, AA is not warranted. In the other, it's unconstitutional.

"It has always amazed me how out of proportion the amount of blacks I see pulled over is to the amount in the population."

And it has always amazed me how high the porportion of the number of black people I see speeding and breaking other traffic laws is relative to the number of black people in the driving population is when compaired to the same ratio for white people. Might THAT explain why they're pulled over more often? Ya think?

"Are blacks inferior to whites? According to you, they have to be."

No, according to me, they don't take advantage of the opportunities presented to them in as high a porportion as white people do. Again, you accuse me of being a racist with no basis. But explain this to me: if black people make up less than 13% of the population, why, in prime-time television's six network average, are 18% of characters black if they're discriminated against? And, more importantly, why do they still complain?

"Blacks are not as good writers as we white folks are. Blacks write worth shit."

There's a non-sequitor for you. Has it ever occured to you that it may have nothing to to with the fact that the people are black, but the fact that less black people ARE good writers on average? I'm not suggesting that they're not as intelligent, so don't you accuse me of racism (again). I'm suggesting that you and people like you are the problem. Because of what you teach, black children grow up expecting everyone to think they're inferior, and thinking that they need to be ready to defend themselves. A mentality like that is counter-productive to learning. If we ever hope to have a color-blind society, then the black children need to be taught that yes, there are racists, but there really aren't that many (which, contrary to what you've been tricked into believing, IS the truth). That's the jobs of parents and, to a lesser degree, early teachers.

"It's called evening the playing field."

And here's the root of the problem. The playing field can NEVER be level when run by fallible humans. NEVER! The best we can do is not get in anyone's way, and let them use their God-given talents however they see fit.

"The only better way to have it was if you could've been born into that 10% that owns 70% of the economy."

Even better, how about the one percent who pay fourty percent of the taxes?

"..but you can't show someone reality if they're just going to base it on what they've been told by the television and newspapers and Rush Limbaugh."

Oh, yeah. Facts and statistics suddenly become completely invalid when quoted by Rush Limbaugh. Right.

"And on a side note, don't quote reagonomics to me. We've proven they don't work. This is the worst economy since the depression, and we can thank Reagan (as well as Clinton) for that."

Actually, since you don't seem to know what you're talking about, I think I will. First, supply-side died in '90, when the Democratic congress lied in that budget deal. Trickle-down was only implemented from '81 to '90. Now for the stats that blow you out of the water:

From '82 to '90, we experienced the longest peacetime economic expansion in history. Intrest rates dropped significantly. The value of the market nearly tripled. Unemployment was almost at nil, as was inflation, which killed the Phillips curve. Average real family income increased by over fifteen percent. For the poorest 20%, income increased by nearly 12%. Families earning more than $50,000 (1990 dollars) were at 25% in '80. In '90, it was up to 31%. Of those in the bottom 20% income bracket in '79, 65% percent jumped at least two brackets. More people got to the top bracket than stayed in the bottom one. The black middle class increased in size by 50%. By '89, there were nearly four million less people under the poverty line. 20 million new jobs were created, with 82% involving high pay and skill. All due to a 40% income tax cut. Now why doesn't supply-side work, again?

"Think it over lad."

This is the last time I'm going to ask you to stop refering to my age. As I've said, it's completely irrelevant.

"I fully support Jay's right to say shit."

As do I. I simply ask him not to, since I don't swear myself, and don't like quoting expletives. Simply my personal preference. It's not like I threatened to sue him if he didn't stop. If he chooses to continue, I won't ask him about it again.

------------------
You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

And again, I'm more worried if two youths in general sit next to me than two old ladies.

I'm trying to come up wit a point here, but it's not coming. Something to do with the fact that when you see black's picking on someone, you 'notice' it more than when it's white guys.

It's not intentional racism, and it's not in the same league as not watching DS9 cause the captain's a nigger, or not hiring someone cause he's slitty-eyed.

OTOH, I remember some fuss on a Transformer newsgroup when someone said that Blackarachnia looked Asain. Which she does. But people were shouting racist left right and center.

Oh well, roll on 2001.

------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

In my opinion, the only way to eliminate racism would be the arrival of aliens or some big cataclysm like an asteroid. Everyone would unite despite their mutual hatred to fight the common enemy. And then go back to petty bickering just as usual. People just never learn...

Shadow, Ultra Magnus: Well, like I said, I'm not talking from personal experience. I admit I'm a bit harsh in my judgment, but can you blame me? I was exposed to dozens of movie portraying the army in a bad way in my youth and one relative who could have come straight from any of them. Add to it the constant cases of sexual abuse in the newspapers in the recent years in Canada (I know there's abuse outside too, but in an institution supposed to preserve peace, they are expected to set the example). It's a good thing you guys are here, or else I would have remained a moron all my life ...

Surely you'll admit that their methods aren't always pleasant, and the problem I find is if it affects a soldier's life outside the army dramatically. Which in that guy's case it did. As another example, one of my cousin here in Qu�bec was also in the army for about 4 years and ever since he's become much more reserved and shy. But it doesn't change everybody. And it's, in my opinion a necessary evil. Is there anyone here from the US who's made his military service? I'd like to be enlightened further.

------------------
-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

Personally, I don't believe this to be the case, as I generally don't hold ANYBODY in esteem who I haven't studied or listened to. I can think of some black people who most folks have never even heard of, who I hold in pretty high esteem, like Emile Etheridge, Guion Bluford, Louis Ridgely, and Paul Robeson. Sidney Poitier is one of the greatest actors of all time. Et cetera.

I am, however, a firm believer in that Worfian (Michael Dorn, another laudable black actor) quote: "Respect is EARNED, not GIVEN away."

I remember listening to a speech by Jesse Jackson (who ordinarily I don't really like, but he had it right this time) which upset a lot of people, when he addresed a community of black americans with the problems the black community has, -- drugs, gangs, absentee fathers, unmarried mothers, -- and the repeated refrain "We know better!"

I remember a report about a southern state (georgia, maybe) which was coming under criticism because something like 50% of its black male residents were denied voting priveliges... because that state denied the vote to people who had been convicted of felonies.

Perople who believe that the world owes them something simply by the fact of their existence are setting themselves up for a great deal of disillusionment.

------------------
Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

To quote my social studies teacher, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." This is not to call Limbaugh a liar, but it's somthing to think about next time you believe that every statistic is Gospel Truth.

"Tell me: you believe that blacks have a disadvantage in society. Why? Who gives them that disadvantage? It's not the government. The extremely small minority of racists in the population can't have much to do with it. So what is it?"

The following applies mostly to the inner-city situation, since blacks at my school are as hard-working as the next kid.
I believe I can answer that. First, I recently read a report in the L.A. Times that there's a much higher percentage of unqualified teachers in inner cities in California. Why? Because of higher crime, possibly. Before you say that it's the inner city's fault for having so much crime, this means inner-city kids aren't getting an equal education with unmotivated teachers, and if you believe the highest achievement you'll have in life is flipping burgers at McDonald's, you wouldn't be motivated either. In this way, crime is an ugly cycle that won't end unless something different is done.

And then there's the lower income level. I doubt any of the teenagers here who can afford a computer would have to work a part-time job to support your family. I'm not really sure how the school funding works in California, but I get the impression that it comes from property tax within the city, which means that the poorer a city is, the less funding the school gets. Feel free to correct me on that.

Omega: No, you're not either a conservative or a liberal. Life is NOT composed of binary choices. I don't know how many times people here have demonstrated that. And even though DT may only be two years older, two years in the teenager life makes a LOT of difference. You need to get out more.

------------------
--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Have you ever considered going into politics? We could use people like you.

Ziyal:

"To quote my social studies teacher, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." This is not to call Limbaugh a liar, but it's somthing to think about next time you believe that every statistic is Gospel Truth."

Quite true. There's a book I've got around here somewheres called "How to Lie with Statistics". Quite informative. And if anyone's interested, those figures for the 80's came from the US census bureau, so if they're not correct, then we're in a heap of trouble.

You're quite right about better education being the key to everything. That's up to the individual cities, though. What I think a city ought to do is find another city who's educational system actually works, then do what they can to copy it. If it works, it'll spread. And no one say "more money". That won't help, as I've pointed out.

"Omega: No, you're not either a conservative or a liberal."

Did I say that? You can be a moderate, too.

"Life is NOT composed of binary choices."

Of course, not nesecarily binary. I don't know what I was thinking when I said that. But life IS a series of choices, most of which have a very limited field of options when reduced far enough. A liberal as usually defined wants the government to have more power, and a conservative wants it to have less. A moderate would probably think things are just fine the way they are (usually how conservatives are mistakenly described). Of course, people can have different opinions in different fields. That's where the reduction comes in. Instead of saying "Are you a conservative, a liberal, or a moderate?", and getting the reply, "Well, I'm conservative on socialized medicine, liberal on finance, and moderate on social security," you reduce the question to "Are you a conservative, a liberal, or a moderate on welfare?", and get a far simpler answer. Of course, you CAN reduce that to a binary choice, too, like "Are you a conservative on medicare?", but you have to remember that there are more that two options, or you can easily get confused.

My point when this first came up was that if there are only two choices, and the first has been disprooven, then unless someone has a third alternative, the second must be true.

------------------
"I'm sorry Wendy, I can't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die."