My maternal ancestors did come over to this continent prior to the Revolutionaryt War, and even fought in it. I know this country's past administrations are guilty of a genocide movement against the natives. The only thing that should be asked of any decendant of anyone who participated in or condoned it should be to acknowledge that it happened. The society of the past is gone and with them their crimes. The best we can do is say, "I'm sorry out ancestors where such shits, it's a real bad rap." "That's okay, your ancestors where pretty stupid anyway," being the responce.

Since I didn't raise my ancestors nor taught them, as I haven't been able to travel back in time, then I am not responcibile for their actions.

We could only be responsible for the actions of our forefathers if we had the power to prevent them, which would require at the very LEAST a functional time-travel device. We have NO control over what our ancestors did, and taking responsibility for that is inane.

If I actually thought you were serious about what you say, I would ask you where you live, and how soon you intend to turn over your house and land to its original inhabitants. If you were a religious person, I would then ask you when you would be making reparations for the Inquisition, the Crusades, Salem, Alexandria, and the annihilation of peoples and cultures on 7 continents.

But I won't, as I know you personally had nothing to do with it. All that any sane person could ask is that people remember these things happened, and take steps to see that it doesn't happen again.

Cleaning up a mess is different. It starts with taking responsibility for your OWN mess, however. Do that, and you'll find that the big messes start to disappear fairly quickly.

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You're just JEALOUS because the little voices talk to ME!

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Blackadder: I'm King *drops dead*

Even if you do think this is a ridiculous idea, many people do follow these beliefs. For example there is still a great deal of animosity between China and Japan over Japan's acts in WWII. The same is true with a number of people still distruting Germany.

Other areas such as Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Cuba, have conflicts because people beleive that nations which in the past were responsible for crimes are still guilty of them.

Your assumption is that we are all completly seperate individuals. I disagree, we are all shaped by the environment in which we live, and we all reflect it in our actions. When that environment, or society, is flawed the members are as well.

I personally think that when a group commits a crime the group is still responsible for it, even if it has different members, and different beliefs. If the KKK became a Star Trek fan-club that does charity work, I would still never consider joining it because of its past.

>Other areas such as Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, and Cuba, have conflicts because people beleive that nations which in the past were responsible for crimes are still guilty of them.

Yes, that's true.. and just LOOK at the status of those places! NONE of those areas are something to look up to! They're not even safe for their own citizens! Doesn't that SUGGEST to you that believing in that sort of idea leads only to continual hatred, and nearly impossible-to-stop bloodshed?

>Your assumption is that we are all completly seperate individuals. I disagree, we are all shaped by the environment in which we live, and we all reflect it in our actions. When that environment, or society, is flawed the members are as well.

True, we are all affected to some extent by society and our surroundings and even our upbringing. But those DO NOT DEFINE US. We, as intelligent, sentient beings with the capacity for choice, still can make those choices.

Example: It's widely recognized that people who were abused as children tend to become abusive themselves. BUT, TEND is not ALWAYS. NOT ALL abused children MUST grow up to be abusers. They still make the CHOICE. (My gf can argue vehemently on this subject, as she WAS an abused child, and therefore knows more about what it is like than anyone.)

CHOICE is more important than surroundings.
CHOICE is more important than heritage.
CHOICE is more important than upbringing.

You are defined by your choices and your OWN actions. NO ONE else's.

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You're just JEALOUS because the little voices talk to ME!

We are responsible only for what we have power and authority over. I regret that some of my ancestors opressed other of my ancestors.

Big, fat, hairy deal. They're all dead now. What I do while I'm alive is what counts. If my great-grandfather robbed a bank during the civil war, would I owe reparations to the descendants of the people who had money in that bank? No. If I robbed the bank, I would be responsible.

In fact I am responsible for a great deal of crime prevention. It's called "controlling yourself". I can't tell you how many robberies I have not committed because I decided that what I had in my pocket was all I had a right to. I don't know how many homes have not been burglarized because I decided I didn't need to take other people's stuff.

Most importantly, you wouldn't believe the number of bodies I would've had to hide if I had killed everyone who made me angry (and in a few cases, it was a near thing).

Simon. You can't effectively control anyone but yourself. If everyone promoted the ideal of self- control with the same sort of zeal the anti-smoking crowd reserves for controlling smokers, we'd be in a lot nicer world, precisely because people would admit when they dislike what you are doing, but agree that it is wrong to try to enslave you in an effort to keep you from irritating them when their own safety is not concerned.

--Baloo

But (to get back on topic) I am taking responsibility for my habit.

Big breakthrough today: The other smokers returned from burning butts and I could smell the smoke on them. I haven't been able to perceive that aroma (without putting my face directly in an ashtray) for more than 20 years.

--Baloo

If you wouldn't want your mom to sift through all your possessions (including that pile of "adult reading material" you think you've cleverly hidden) then why should you be trusted to keep an eye on me? Realistically, that's the only way you can be certain I don't do something you might want to prevent.

That's most of my argument against "We're all responsible". In other words, who made me your warden, or you mine? And who keeps you from overstepping the bounds of what is right? No-one is better positioned to know what you are up to than you yourself. Police your own behavior.

Blaming yourself for other people's exercise of free will is dysfunctional. So is blaming others for your exercise of free will. Whenever you hear someone say "Look what you made me do!" get out NOW! That's the battle cry of the abuser. Only come back when you've gotten reinforcements. Likewise beware "It's all my fault!" when voiced by the victim. It's the battle cry of the abused.

I choose to be neither victim nor victimizer. What is your choice?

--Baloo

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"It seems strange that I, Kudos, a doubter, should be given this luxurious window seat whilst you.... AGEING with age, rot away in that disgrace of an aisle seat. Ha, Hah!
Where is your God now old woman?!"
"Jesus, I'm sorry I asked...!"

- THE BIG BUS

If someone continues to do these things, then they can be imprisoned to the full extent of the law. I don't agree with capital punishment because people should be made to suffer for their crimes, not let off.

I do agree with your point though that to take responsibility will deter others, but the situation also has to be controlled with weapons becoming less freely available because that way, someone can take responsibility for their actions, it'll set an example and with the difficulty in obtaining weapons, it'll also cut down on other similar incidents. If controlling a situation and taking responsibility could be done together, it would be perfect, but I doubt it could be done.

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Blackadder: I'm King *drops dead*