------------------
Clones are People Two

"The Force is like duct tape: it has a dark side and a light side, and it holds the universe together"
([[[[[[*]}�������������������������

First: I must for once agree with you, choice is always more important than heritage, upbringing, and surroundings. But it is those things that force people to make choices.

I have never been tempted to bring a gun to school and kill my classmates, and if I were to be tempted I am fairly sure I could resist it. I can not be blammed for being tempted to do something, I can only be be blammed if I chose to act on that temptation. What creates temptation are the factors you list as well as some others, such as genetics.

The people who are responsible for these surrondings are partially responsible for creating the crime. But never to the extent of the actual perpetrator.

Let's take your child abuse analogy for example. The abuser is responsible and should be punished. But the temptation to abuse his child would not be there if his father hadn't abused him. The father is thus responsible for the abuse of his grandchild, despite not having actually done it himself.

------------------
Clones are People Two

"The Force is like duct tape: it has a dark side and a light side, and it holds the universe together"
([[[[[[*]}�������������������������

And as far as Mr. Manson goes, I see no need to praise or despise him. I will say this, he's a very smart man, and it shows in his interviews.

Even without saying that if he does not do bad things himself then I must say his music and especially his concerts cause evil things to take place. They are his music and his concerts so hehas control over them. He is therefore responsible for what takes place because of them. It simply comes down to his fans, but ESPECIALLY HIM being responsible for their actions. The leader is responsible for what the troops do.

And while Simon may not be able to express his beliefs right yet, I believe that WWJD is not written on his chest. I believe that it is written on his heart!

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.

"The devil went down
To Newport town
He brought his red surfboard
To race against the Lord.
It was totally rockin'!
It was totally rockin'!"

I'd really like to see what evidence you have of "evil things" being caused by his concerts. Riots? Better ban Democratic conventions, then.

I don't want to go out of the way defending the man, because I don't have that much interest invested in the whole thing. What I will defend is the right to express anger through art.

And what's this about me not being able to express my beliefs? That's what I've been doing the whole time.

That being said at his concert people do all sorts of illegal drugs ,as usual. His really big fans who will actually tell you they worship Satan and some even him, do all sorts of bad stuff. I met a guy wants at summer camp at OSU and he had been to a concert.

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.

Although I find the idea of worshipping Satan strange (I can understand almost any sort of religion and aethism, but to worship Satan just strikes me as trying to be cool to an extent), I think that a lot of his anger can be traced back to his name.

You can't blame him for changing it. Brian. The only worse name he could have had was Keith.

Most Christians don't know this.. and some of the dumber Satanists don't know it either.

Actually, from what I've learned in my travels, there appear to be two branches of "Satanism":

1: The branch that actually worships a devil-being. These tend to be made up of small groups of generally mentally unsophisticated individuals. They are the ones usually responsible for "animal sacrifices," as they believe you can take a life form's "power" when you kill it.
Frequency: rumored to be common, but actually fairly rare.

2: Self-ists. These people worship the individial, themselves, above all else. One could call them the Ultimate Libertarians, or perhaps more accurately the Ultimate Solipsists. Nothing is important except the self and self gratification. These folks call themselves "Satanists" primarily because it annoys the Christians, and not because they actually believe in any devil. It attracts attention to them. They may kill animals too, but in their case it's simply because they feel like it at the time.
Frequency: Moderate.

as it turns out, M.Manson was raised in a conservative Christian environment, which probably has something to do with the way he turned out.

Actually, at virtually ANY concert, you can find somebody doing something naughty. Satanism has nothing to do with it. There were stoned people at the Shania Twain concert in Pittsburgh last month, too.

And as for Manson's fans doing bad stuff.. well, come to think of it, there's a lot of people who considered themselves "fans" of Jesus who have done some pretty despicable things too.

That said, I must admit I don't care for Marilyn Manson at all, and I've listened to maybe three of his songs. The only message I recall was "the 'beautiful people' suck." Which is all too often true.

I love Tori Amos. She says a lot about hypocracy in religion too, but it's couched in nicer songs. She too, is a ver intelligent person who grew up in a Christian environment, and rebelled from it. Her father was a Methodist minister.

HMM.. I wonder if there's a trend here.. maybe upbringing DOES influence people.. just not the way the proponents think...

The guy was from someplace I really only knew him cause he was on my floor. Yeah, he did a lotta stuff and he wore a bullet-proof vest there.

I don't know why people would say they are Satanists if they really aren't, but oh well! The problem with some Christians parents (esp. PK [preacher's kids] homes) is that the parents are too strict or are too trusting. It's about equal both ways. Some parents assume positive things about their kids that aren't there. I deal with the latter everyday almost.

The most popular Christian band today, DC Talk used to be a rap group. After not being able to subdue their crowd, which is usually composed of an unusual amount of non-Christians, they decided to change into a heavy metal/R&B band. They basically do everything now. They have become better at getting the drugs and the vulgar signs out of their crowds since they changed formats about 5 yrs. back.

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.

We all are a little!

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.

Huh? Are you implying that people who listen to rap music are somehow more violent?