Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
Does anyone know where I might be able to find an online copy of the entire 2800-3000 person victims list from the attacks, including the Pentagon & Shanksville? A couple thousand names could keep me going through about 2 or 3 starship classes, & who better to name them after, eh?
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
I am dismayed at what you said. By placing these people's names in a starship list, I feel you are trivialing the victims.
Registered: Sep 1999
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
hmmm
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
How do you figure that? Is it trivalizing Virgil Grissom to have two starships named after him? Is it trivalizing Prokofiev, Tolstoy, Gage, and many others by naming starships after them?
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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The people that you listed didn't die as a result of an act of brutal murder.
Registered: Sep 1999
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
target, i gotta say you are way off on this one. and Shik is gonna tell you off real soon.
The only thing that is inappropriate may be the timing of naming stuff after them right now, since its such a recent tragedy
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
So I guess Robert Stethem shouldn't have had a destroyer named after him because he was blown up in Lebanon? I believe I have a ship named Trotsky in there somewhere. Should I remove it because he got icepicked by a fat Mexican? What about Robert F. Kennedy? What about John F. Kennedy? Should I dispose of the Medgar Evers as well?
The USN can't honor these people unless they were military personnel, so you can sure as shit bet that the next batch of frigates & destroyers are gonna have Pentagon victims in them. Starfleet honors the fallen, past & "present." I mean, I've made some mildly questionable ship name choices before (ships after Fidel Castro, Mao Tse-Tung, & Lenin...not to mention the whole Diana, Princess Of Wales fiasco), but to me this seem like a no-brainer. In fact, maybe I should see if I can find MORE victim lists from accidents. TWA Flight 800, KAL 007, etc.
As for Mike's thought about the recentness...at the rate I do data entry these days, this class won't be done until the 1st anniversary. Still..
Oh, & thanks, Cartman.
EDIT: After clicking the link,I see that someone from where I used to live--a 20-year-old student--was on Flight 11. Would never have known that had I not gotten this idea.
[ February 21, 2002, 18:08: Message edited by: Shik ]
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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I feel this is dishonorable and it's an action I find reprehensible. Though I feel this way, I know there are people that feel differently.
To use a known example, there are people who have no qualms on visiting "Ground Zero". And there are people such as myself who do experience qualms and decline to visit this place.
I feel what would be out of place is if I didn't say anything. By saying nothing, I would be tacitly condoning this behavrior. My words are an expression of condemnation.
Finally, if you will note, I am careful to use the proper "I-feel" structure to phrase an opinion. This structure suggests that I am expressing an opinion, not a judgement which could be construed as a personal attack on Shik.
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
So noted. Should you ever decide to peruse my shiplist project, I then suggest that you stay away from the latter half of my Thomas Paine & M'Benga class listings. And incidentally, the M'Benga-class is a hospital ship. Hm.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I just want to throw in that we've had two starships named "Hood," both are presumably named for Sir Horace Hood, a British Admiral. He was killed in the Battle of the Jutland aboard the HMS Invincible.
Plus, starship gives a ship named for a murderer -- the "Ulysses." At the end of The Illiad, he and his son kill off all of the suitors for his wife.
Today's cultural education session was sponsored in part by Google.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
After posting my last response, I see that Shik had responded. I can sense his anger through the posting.
Shik,
This is not an rebuke on your person; rather, I am rebuking your behavrior.
I wasn't fully cognizant of the manner in which Tolstoy was killed. In the light of that new information, I will need to amend an earlier post I had written.
The people that were listed here are remembered for not how they died. They are remembered, and in some cases honored, for their accomplishments. So, a ship would be honoring their accomplishments. Grissom was a early pioneer in space aviation. Tolstoy and Prokofiev were artists who wrote works of literature and music, respectively. The Kennedys and Evers were leaders in their fields.
This is different from those who died on 9-11. They will be remembered by most chiefly for the fact that they were killed by agents of a global terrorist network. The accomplishments that they achieved in their personal lives will be forgotten in time.
This is how we humans treat the great and the not-so great. It is unfortunate, but true.
So, Shik, are you naming ships after these people to a) honor their personal achievments, as you would for a Kennedy or a Tolstoy or b)honoring the event that they were participants in?
I feel from your opening words that the answer would be b. And, this forms part of my condemnation of your actions.
If I am wrong, please let me know.
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
It reminds me of a thread we had not too long ago where someone was taking offense to the Grissom (which was named in honor of an astronaut killed in the line of duty) being destroyed by Klingons in The Search For Spock.
Plus, targetemployee, I don't think Shik was angry when he responded to you this past time, but he would have every right to be. You called what he intended to do as a tribute to innocent victims "dishonorable," "reprehensible," and "trivializing the victims."
I would also add that it could be construed that you, too, are trivializing the lives of the victims by assuming that they did nothing in their lives worth remembering other than being in the World Trade Center on September 11th.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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