quote:Originally posted by Sean: This has confused me for some time;
Is Jesus God? I know he was the son of mary who was impregnated by God, but is he God?
Depends who you ask. Ask a Jewish or Islamic person and they'll say he was a very wise man, perhaps even a prophet. Ask a Christian and they'll tell you he was the son of God, King of the Jews, the Messiah and saviour of all mankind...but then of course they're a tad biassed. Personally, I think he was probably a personality of the Ghandi type persuasion. All about non-violence and being generally cool and un-heavy. Believe it or not, this guy wasn't the only Messiah knocking around at the time. I forget his name, but there was this other guy who was reported to heal the sick, cure the blind, all that jazz. He even drove the Romans out of Israel for a while. Of course the reason why this guy (or any of the others I suppose) didn't end up being deified probably have something to do with the Romans wiping them all out, followers and all. Since Jesus thought it'd be fun to hang out in the garden of Gethsemane a little longer only he got nailed up and his followers presumably scarpered to the hills.
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As far as Catholicism goes, Jesus and God are considered one and the same, yet Jesus is also considered fully human and the Son of God. It's contradictory, but that's the belief. The Divine Mystery is I what I recall this concept being called from my Catholic school days.
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Mormon belief, which is considered so different from mainstream Christianity that some Christians refuse to refer to Mormonism as a Christian religion, is that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings with a single purpose. Mormon doctrine is that God the Father created Jesus and and the rest of His children (i.e., us) spiritually prior to the creation of the earth.
Another aspect of this belief, which Mike Huckabee presumably brought up during the Republican primaries to make Mitt Romney look bad, is that Lucifer (i.e., Satan) was also one of God's children, which would make Satan and Jesus brothers.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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According to the book of Job, the spirit creature refered to as Satan at one time had access to the heavenly court just like the rest of the angels. Revelation describes a war in heaven where he and other rebels were cast out.
Again in Job, the angels are said to have cried out joyfully at the founding of the Earth, which would indicate they were created before the physical universe, or at least parts of it.
As to the God = Jesus question, Jesus himself never claimed to be God, at least not in the Biblical record. He claimed to be the son of God, the Messiah, the representation of his father. Most scriptures often used to suggest a trinity are noticably lacking reference to the holy spirit. And Colossians calls him the first born of all creation as opposed to God who is said to have had no beginning.
Of course, this is one interpretation, but one that I find quite sensible and satisfying.
To the topic of the thread, I've always thought 1 Corinthians 15:41 was cool: "The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact star differs from star in glory." Looking at the comparison between Sol and some of the other enormous stars in that graphic, it's just unbelievable how big things are out there.
According to This website dating for some of the Dead Sea Scrolls goes back to between 300 and 100 BC. Granted, this is the scroll of the Book of Isaiah, which was written before Jesus lived.
In regards the four Gospels - While it's true that we don't have any scrolls dating to the decades right after Christ's death, there is enough evidence to help point out they were written between 8 and 65 (or so) years after his death. By the 2nd Century the scrolls were in wide circulation and in a number of catalogs and other notations on the scrolls indicated when some were written.
quote:Not that this or other works of creation myth are totally without merit. As I recall the ancient Greek creation myth read as being surprisingly close to some of the early universe/big bang type theories. If you can put the anthropomorphising aspects out of your mind.
In contrast with that, the Bible has been very clear right from the start.
Shape/suspension of Planet Earth: Isa. 40:22: �There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.�
Job describes God as �stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing.� (Job 26:7)
So, while the Ancients were anthropomorphizing and the and talking about a flat Earth being towed by a giant turtle, Bible writers were stating plain scientific facts.
In regards Scientology: A guy I worked with told me a story once. A science fiction convention was held and there was a panel discussion about religion. All the big names were present - Clark, Asimov, Hubbard, etc... Someone postulated that it would be difficult to start a religion. Hubbard said "no it wouldn't..." And shortly thereafter Scientology was formed. Don't know if this is true or not but it fits with the comments above.
No,the 7 Deadly Sins are not in the Bible.
Actually, God and the Bible encourage organization. James did say the above about looking after orphans and widows, but he also said to not forsake the gathering of oneselves together at meetings. The book of Acts shows an organizational arrangement. Letters were written by a governing body and traveling representatives went out and checked on the flock. The ancient Hebrews were organized into an entire nation with laws, priests, etc...
It's been imperfect, power-hungry men that have corrupted the organization to their own ends.
The Bible even said this would happen.
The Trinity is really a sticky wicket. Most no one understands it. Many have their own idea as to what it is. You can talk to 10 Catholics and probably get 10 versions of what they think it is.
This concept is not taught in the Bible. The word doesn't even appear in the Bible. Instead of being able to explain it, people chalk it up to a "mystery."
Again, goes back to oppressing people. "Don't read the Bible or we'll burn you at the stake. You're too stupid to understand the Bible so we'll tell you what it says. This or that doctrine is a mystery beyond your understanding but you must accept it or you'll burn in Hell forever..."
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I guess that sorta straightens things out? I asked because when a friend would pray to god, they would some how include jesus's name. So if there is God, and then there is Jesus, who as the son of god is also considered a God, and the holy ghost/ spirit, wouldn't that make Christianity a polythesitic religion?
That, or Jesus is/was schizophrenic.
-------------------- "Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten
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It's unfortunate that abuses and atrocities perpetrated in the name of Christ have turned off so many to Christianity specifically and organized religion in general. Since people seem naturally to respond strongly to religion, evil people have used religion to gain and hold power. According to the Bible, this was not unexpected. In Matthew 7: 15-16 Jesus is quoted as saying, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits." In other words, if they bring corruption, death, and misery, they are not truly serving God.
As for prayer, many Christian religions pray in the name of Jesus since the Bible states that Jesus is mankind's advocate with the Father. In other words, man's imperfections make him unworthy of speaking to God the Father except through Jesus Christ. Mormons pray to God but in the name of Jesus. I have heard some evangelical Christians pray directly to Jesus, although that's probably because evangelicals believe that God and Jesus are one in the same.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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You know, I recall reading somewhere that the prophecies in the Old Testament about the Messiah weren't all fulfilled by Jesus. That many of the things that Christians say will occur after his Second Coming were actually supposed to occur during the first (and only) time the Messiah, who was supposed to be "a man of the earth," was born - and I don't *think* there's anything about an immaculate conception in the Old Testament either (although I'm basing that on my own memories and it's been 9 years since I read the Old Testament through).
For me, religion is personal. My problem with Christianity is that it claims to be right where others are wrong. I vehemently oppose that. I don't think it's even close to possible for a human being or anything like a human being to ever understand the universe or what is in it, let alone what may or may not have created it/transcends it. Anything we worship, any *way* we worship, is our own poor and muddled attempts to personify and connect with whatever is out there. And that's fine - faith gives strength, hope, and a reason for living. However, I think because of that, it needs to be something that resonates deep within you, not a doctrine that you believe is objectively "correct." Religion is so far removed from science and empirical fact that I don't think words like 'right' or 'wrong' (in the factual, not moral, senses of the words) could even apply to it. It's a realm without logic, which isn't bad, but, you know, don't try to apply logic to the illogical Use your heart, not year head, iow.
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quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: My problem with Christianity is that it claims to be right where others are wrong. I vehemently oppose that. I don't think it's even close to possible for a human being or anything like a human being to ever understand the universe or what is in it, let alone what may or may not have created it/transcends it. Anything we worship, any *way* we worship, is our own poor and muddled attempts to personify and connect with whatever is out there.
The reason why Christianity believes that it's right where others are wrong is that it is a "revealed" religion. That is, either Jesus told the truth and he is the Son of God and humanity may only come to God through him, or Jesus (or his followers) were liars and following him is no better than following anyone else. The heart of Christianity is that Christ is the only source of salvation. Christianity is utterly hollow and meaningless if that doctrine is soft pedaled. Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15: 19, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." In other words, if faith in Christ is merely a comfort in this life and has no effect beyond death, then Christians are the most miserable of men, having placed their faith in a lie.
I know few Christians who claim to understand the complexity of the Universe. However, they do believe that a loving Creator would give us a sufficient level of knowledge to at least know which way to go. Now, does believing that you have the truth (or at least the most important essentials of the truth) mean that you should persecute, forcibly convert, or kill those who don't believe it? Unfortunately, many have believed that through the ages, but it's not an idea that was ever taught by Jesus or his apostles.
You can believe that someone's religion (or lack thereof) is in error without attempting to take away their free will. Civilized individuals must 'agree to disagree', which is the philosophy reflected by the 1st Amendment's right to freedom of religion.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Your blanketing a lot of sects in with Christians. Each believing that their doctrine is the one, which is no different than all the sects of any other religion I suppose, but covering them all like that, as if their were only one doctrine just doesn't any better then what they do.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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Every religion believes it is right and all others are wrong. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a religion. It would just be an hypothesis or, at best, a theory.
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One of the reasoning points about the Trinity doctrine. If a human displays the qualities of a multiple personality we call it a disorder and get that individual help. Yet God, in whose image we're made, is supposed to be three personalities in one?
There's a difference in praying "through" Jesus and praying "to" Jesus. One of Jesus roles now is to act as a mediator between God and man. He delivers the prayers to God. It's a simple chain of command - Man's head is Christ and Christ's head is God. Much the same way any corporation has a chain of command - you talk to your manager or supervisor and he delivers the message to his supervisor.
quote:You know, I recall reading somewhere that the prophecies in the Old Testament about the Messiah weren't all fulfilled by Jesus.
That's interesting Daniel. I'd like to see that reference. What I read was the exact opposite. Of the hundreds of Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, all of them were fulfilled by Jesus. I've read this in connection to the accusation that Jesus was a con-artist who read the prophecies and then arranged events so that he'd fulfill them. It simply doesn't work. There are many prophecies that were beyond his control that he couldn't influence yet did fulfill.
quote:My problem with Christianity is that it claims to be right where others are wrong. I vehemently oppose that.
A lot of people feel this way. If you take the Bible as being true, however, you'll notice that this is exactly how God operated all through the past. If you want to survive the flood you had to get on Noah's ark. If you wanted to worship him the way he approved, you had to reject Baal and the other Pagan gods. If you want Salvation you have to accept and follow Jesus.
But when you look at the distortions we see today between religions that both claim to follow Jesus, it does make you wonder.
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quote:I know few Christians who claim to understand the complexity of the Universe. However, they do believe that a loving Creator would give us a sufficient level of knowledge to at least know which way to go. Now, does believing that you have the truth (or at least the most important essentials of the truth) mean that you should persecute, forcibly convert, or kill those who don't believe it? Unfortunately, many have believed that through the ages, but it's not an idea that was ever taught by Jesus or his apostles.
So what does the Bible say about teaching creationism in schools and banning actual science? I'm curious because I know in the US there seams to be a growing movement (again) to ban Darwin from the classroom. A few year back I think some school governors over here in the UK (who just happened to be member of the local church group) tried something similar and were rather quickly told to bugger off.
This sort of thing smacks to me thought control (or at least thought restriction) and quite worrying when it's happening in what is supposedly the greatest free nation on Earth.
I remember back in school we used to get one assembly a week from the local Padre and he used to say something that sums it up pretty well. Anyone who reads the bible literally, needs their head examined. He said he was quoting some bishop, but I can't back that up.
Part of why I don't trust the Bible as a document for settling arguments is that, as you can see in some of the above posts you can usually find a quote to support almost any argument. Moses had the right idea when he rendered it all down to just two tablets.
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: So what does the Bible say about teaching creationism in schools and banning actual science?
Well, I mentioned the essential truth. I think it's pretty obvious that the New Testament cannot be read in such a way as to make Christ merely a wise man and still have any meaning. I think Paul's statement in 1st Corinthians makes that fairly clear.
As for teaching Creationism in schools; you'll find a divergence of opinions on that. The largest Christian religion, Catholicism, declared that the basic theory of evolution is compatible with Christianity. Now, you can debate how that statement might complicate beliefs on either side, but that's what John Paul II said. I personally attended Brigham Young University (which is of course the Mormon university). At BYU, the biology department teaches a thoroughly orthodox version of the theory of evolution. Surveys of Mormon scientists show that most believe that evolution and Mormon beliefs are not necessarily incompatible (that's where I fall in). However, if you leave that pool, you'll find that most Mormons believe that evolution is a doctrine of the Devil. It has been repeated several times by Church authorities that there is no doctrine either in support of nor against the theory.
In the case of the schools, I believe that creationism shouldn't be taught in biology classes. Not only can it not be categorized as acceptable science, but you would find disagreements about whether or not it should be taught even among Christians. At most I suppose you could mention to students that not everybody agrees with the theory, but it would probably cause less problems if you simply informed the parents of what their children are going to be taught and leave it up to them teach their children as they see fit.
I'm reminded of what my anthropology professor at BYU told us. He said that when he started his professorship thirty years ago he was interviewed by a high ranking authority of the Mormon Church. The authority told him that he didn't agree with my professor's views on evolution, but that my professor had been hired to "teach [his] science" and not any particular religious views. He has been doing that ever since.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Use your heart, not year head, iow.
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